So let’s start from the beginning. Tell me about your early years and where you come from.

I’m originally from San Francisco.  Actually I technically grew up in Millbrae, but I went to K-12 in the Sunset district of San Francisco. Most of my family is based here. I’m back in San Francisco after being gone for about ten years for college, grad school, and working as well. I’ve been back since late 2011.

How did you first get interested in tech?

I used to be a civil engineer – I worked in that industry for about four years and started to get really bored. I was doing a lot of repetitive work, and projects would last for years. I didn’t get to see the fruits of my labor as soon as I wanted, so I wanted to be in a space that used more innovative technology where I could see results faster. Based on what I was hearing it sounded like the tech industry was super fast-paced and that’s what I decided to transition into. I started to look for all types of jobs in tech and at the time, I thought I only qualified for customer support positions. I started working in customer support to get my foot in the door. It was really funny when I was applying because the company said, “A civil engineer with a Master’s degree in mechanical engineering is applying to work in customer support: we think she might be overqualified.”

Walk me through that transition, once you were in tech, working customer support, and teaching yourself how to code.

I worked in customer support at two companies, as a Community Manager and Customer Engagement Manager for about a year-and-a-half to two years. At one of those companies, I thought I wanted to do usability, but that didn’t end up panning out for me. I thought I wanted to continue working with people.

“’A civil engineer with a Master’s degree in mechanical engineering is applying to work in customer support: we think she might be overqualified.'”

Then I started to become interested in HTML and CSS because a friend of mine talked about building her own site and a site in Flash for a client as a side project. I decided to take a HTML and CSS workshop, which was about 12 hours in total. Eventually, I moved back to San Francisco without a job. During that time in addition to job searching, I started building a portfolio of art projects in HTML/CSS and posted that online. That was exciting and I thought it was super cool.

That’s when I took the Customer Engagement Manager role, which was more technical than the previous one. Customer Engagement Managers there had read access to a database, and I provided support regarding our HTML/CSS Craigslist templates and API. Our manager taught us how to write SQL queries so we could kind of view data, which really helped in customer support. I’d tried to learn Python and then I also tried to learn PHP because that company’s stack included PHP, but I didn’t take to either of those languages.

Then one of my coworkers recommended I learn Javascript. You can run it in your browser and you can view your changes quickly. So I took another 12 hour workshop over a weekend with Girl Develop It and learned Javascript. I started building all types of things and going to hack-a-thons, going to hack-nights, hanging out with more experienced programmers, and asking them a zillion questions. Eventually I transitioned from Customer Engagement Manager to Web Developer. I started working on HTML emails, which are a horror, but a good place to start.

“I started building all types of things and going to hack-a-thons, going to hack-nights, hanging out with more experienced programmers, and asking them a zillion questions. Eventually I transitioned from Customer Engagement Manager to Web Developer.”

How do you feel like your background in multiple disciplines affects how you work as a dev?

I definitely wouldn’t say I’m an expert. I like to say I’m a Jane of all trades, master of none. [laughter] Certainly customer support affects the way that I work as a developer. Working mostly on the front end, I do think about our customers. I try to think of all types of people who might be using the platform instead of just thinking about people like me. That helps me as a developer – having empathy for people who might not be the most technically savvy or people who have qualities that might limit their interactions with websites.

Working in civil engineering helped with developing a technical mind and thinking about things in a formulaic way. That really helps in programming in general. Also in all engineering disciplines, essentially create building blocks, which are more digestible and used to build larger blocks. Software Engineers called it abstraction, but Civil Engineers don’t have a term for it. Abstraction of formulas and calculations exists in civil engineering. That’s definitely translated over to the way that things work in Software Engineering realm.

“Customer support affects the way that I work as a developer. Working mostly on the front end, I do think about our customers. I try to think of all types of people who might be using the platform instead of just thinking about people like me. That helps me as a developer – having empathy for people who might not be the most technically savvy or people who have qualities that might limit their interactions with websites.Working in civil engineering helped with developing a technical mind and thinking about things in a formulaic way.”

One other thing that overlaps is the relationship between civil engineers and architects is very similar to the relationship between programmers and designers. It’s funny: architects will create designs and then they pass that on to civil engineers who actually vet those designs with calculations. Designers create visual mocks and pass those onto developers, who build out the code. Equally true is the overlap within the industries themselves: architects and designers are often very technical, either knowing structures or writing code themselves; and civil engineers and developers often have an eye for design, throwing together what might be a great looking window or website.

What about working in tech and in Silicon Valley has been really awesome for you? What are things you’re proud of?

Being able to create my own projects out of thin air. The innovation and speed of innovation have definitely met my expectations for the industry. You can build a website overnight and I love that aspect of Tech. I guess that’s more personal. That what I do professionally, I can also use to produce personal projects is awesome – I have a lot of fun doing that.

I’m also so proud that one of my projects, (Human) Wasteland, became a political talking piece around homelessness in SF. I used programming skills I developed put the site up in just a week. The fact that a small, week old project could raise awareness about the lack of resources for those experiencing homelessness in San Francisco is so amazing! I still can’t believe that happened.

What have been some of your biggest struggles or roadblocks?

Coming from a non-traditional Computer Science background and being an “older” Chinese American woman in Tech has been interesting. There’s definitely unspoken bias. Since I’ve started working in tech, I’ve been the oldest person on all but two teams, the only woman on all but one team, and the only Asian woman on all of the teams. Some of those teams became more diverse and some became less diverse over time.

“Coming from a non-traditional Computer Science background and being an ‘older’ Chinese American woman in Tech has been interesting. There’s definitely unspoken bias.”

But… you’re not old at all.

I know. I’m in my early thirties, so it’s kind of shocking, but really interesting. I think you kind of have to take it with a grain of salt.

But I’m also frustrated when I think about what is being innovated in Silicon Valley. Most of the innovation is going towards things that are built for the types of people who already work in the industry. And I feel like having a more diverse team – or a more diverse workforce in the industry in general – would really help broaden the horizons of what the industry can actually do and what we could bring to the world outside of tech. But right now there are so many apps that are just replicas of existing apps.

The other day I conversed with coworkers about learning to cook and they said, “Oh there’s an app for that.” Then they listed a number of apps that do exactly that or a slight spin on it, e.g., “Oh, do the chefs come to your place or do you go to the chef’s house?” That sort of thing. I find that extremely frustrating in tech.

“Most of the innovation is going towards things that are built for the types of people who already work in the industry. The other day I conversed with coworkers about learning to cook and they said, ‘Oh there’s an app for that.'”

I have a lot of internal conflict: I want to do social good and use my skills to bring about change, but I still work in an industry where the majority of people don’t feel the same way. So that’s been a strange experience and personally hard to juggle or manage.

You mentioned bias and microagressions in your pre-interview and I’m curious what that’s been like for you.

It’s interesting because I think I’ve experienced racism and microaggression all of my life, but now that I’m older I notice it more. When you’re younger and it hasn’t happened as often, it’s easier to just brush off and not think about it. But as you become older and the more you experience it, the less tolerant of those issues you become.

It’s happened with strangers and it’s happened with friends. Usually, I don’t think people intentionally try to hurt you. That almost makes it worse in a way, because they don’t even need to think about what they’re doing to you. People can just say things about race, ethnicity, gender, sexuality, disability, or age without having to stop and think about it.

Microaggression definitely affects the way you work: how you interact with coworkers or people in the industry and how you network. It can even affect your career. If you can’t work with those people who are saying racist or sexist things towards you or if you are not comfortable at work, then how do you further your career? How do you move up within a company? Or how do you move up within an industry if you’re being looked down upon? People don’t see you for your skills or your ability. They just see your race, ethnicity, gender, sexuality, disability, or age.

“I think I’ve experienced racism and microaggression all of my life, but now that I’m older I notice it more. It’s happened with strangers and it’s happened with friends. Usually, I don’t think people intentionally try to hurt you. That almost makes it worse in a way, because they don’t even need to think about what they’re doing to you. People can just say things about race, ethnicity, gender, sexuality, disability, or age without having to stop and think about it.”

I think this industry isn’t alone in its discrimination– it happens in so many industries. Civil engineering is somewhat similar, except most civil engineers are closer to the tech investor profile or archetype. In general, mostly older white males dominated civil engineering. So I think discrimination and microaggression happens everywhere– it’s just now that I’m in tech, I definitely notice those problems more that before.

You mentioned being the oldest person on your teams—do you experience ageism at 32?

[chuckles] I don’t think so, not super directly. I wouldn’t say ageism outright, but I think people in tech typically don’t consider people who are older or caretakers, or have families and obligations outside of work and partying. A lot of team bonding involves drinking or happens after work when people may need to go home and care for their children, parents, grandparents, etc. I’m at an age where I think, “Yeah, I don’t really want to drink every night.” So I think it’s more of a microaggression rather than actual, direct ageism.

You also mentioned sexual harassment being an issue.

Yeah, sexual harassment has definitely occurred at multiple companies where I worked, but not always directly to me.

The first time it happened to me, I wrote a long article about it. I’m still surprised that it was allowed to happen. I don’t know if sexual harassment is worse in tech, but I feel like when you have an industry that is predominantly young, male, focused on partying, and being the “fun” industry, all of those factors combine to create an atmosphere that almost encourages sexual harassment. At least in instances I’ve witnessed or personally experienced, alcohol was definitely involved. And those incidents occurred in the office, so I’m of the opinion that company culture and values make a huge difference.

I also noticed that the people I know who have sexually harassed others have done it multiple times: repeat offenders. I don’t know if there’s any way to fix this, but I wish there was some way to pass that information on because even if they’re punished, these people are just rehired because there’s such high demand for people in tech. Unfortunately, I think companies that once employed them are protecting themselves by not defaming those people when they get fired for sexual harassment.

In this industry with the emphasis on partying and a “fun” atmosphere, people become friends. Everyone becomes super friendly. But when you lack a more professional atmosphere, people don’t want to call out, reprimand, or punish coworkers for sexual harassment.

“I feel like when you have an industry that is predominantly young, male, focused on partying, and being the “fun” industry, all of those factors combine to create an atmosphere that almost encourages sexual harassment. At least in instances I’ve witnessed or personally experienced, alcohol was definitely involved. And those incidents occurred in the office, so I’m of the opinion that company culture and values make a huge difference.”

In my case of being sexually sexually harassed, I reported it.  I think I was one of the first employees to officially report it, but eventually found out that many of my coworkers knew about that dude’s history of sexual harassment and/or had been sexually harassed by him. Not only that, but when he was sexually harassing me and other women at the company, he was dating another coworker and lying about it. And the guy just got a slap on the wrist. He wasn’t fired, he was barely scolded.

It’s a super long story, but basically he went on to date one of the people whom he managed and used company resources to take her along to a conference, i.e., a company paid vacation. So it was just a super strange situation overall that was allowed to continue– nothing was ever done about it. He eventually quit of his own accord.

Wow.

Yeah. People liked him and so they don’t want to fire him.

That is nuts.

Yeah [chuckles].

“In my case of being sexually sexually harassed, I reported it.  I think I was one of the first employees to officially report it, but eventually found out that many of my coworkers knew about that dude’s history of sexual harassment and/or had been sexually harassed by him. Not only that, but when he was sexually harassing me and other women at the company, he was dating another coworker and lying about it. And the guy just got a slap on the wrist. He wasn’t fired, he was barely scolded.”

On a more positive note, have you had mentors or people that have inspired you in your career?

Yeah, I’ve had a lot of engineering mentors, people who guided me along the way and gave me advice on what I should be learning.

When I moved back to San Francisco, the manager I ended up working for was running a very technical customer support team. He was a great manager and helped push me towards software engineering without him even knowing it. He allowed me to handle all the technical support for our API and HTML and CSS Craigslist templates. That really really helped me in my development and towards my trajectory of becoming a software engineer. He could really pinpoint people’s skills and push them in that direction, and cleared roadblocks to help that happen.

It’s funny: people have told me what he said about me as an employee and I heard that he said something along the lines of, “yeah, Jenn was kind of a pain in the ass.” Because I asked him for a lot– I was demanding as an employee but he was a great manager.

“Many communities in Tech support people who are starting out and also people who are experienced. I learned JavaScript through Girl Develop It. Initially, that network was helpful for meeting other women, learning javascript, and staying involved. But there are tons of these networks: Girl Geek Dinners, Women Who Code, RailsBridge, PyLadies—you can really have your pick, and all these women have been extremely supportive.”

And at the very beginning of transitioning into Web Development, there were so many friends and coworkers who were extremely helpful by just answering questions, steering me towards the right technologies, attending hack nights and hackathons with me, and encouraging me.

Many communities in Tech support people who are starting out and also people who are experienced. I learned JavaScript through Girl Develop It. Initially, that network was helpful for meeting other women, learning javascript, and staying involved. But there are tons of these networks: Girl Geek Dinners, Women Who Code, RailsBridge, PyLadies—you can really have your pick, and all these women have been extremely supportive. It’s also a great way to track what’s going on in the industry particularly with women.

I was also a member of a feminist hackerspace, Double Union. I found out about it via AdaCamp which was run by The Ada Initiative, which is sadly defunct. But AdaCamp was awesome– it really opened my eyes towards women in tech, acknowledging the issues that we face, and discovering that I’m not the only person deals with those problems. That was a really amazing experience. So joining Double Union was really great for me. Lots of wonderful, supportive, accomplished women are members that organization.

In the last year or so, I spoke at a bunch of conferences and it’s been pretty crazy the last few years for me, being really immersed in tech.

How does it feel being a San Francisco native who works in tech?

It’s a huge catch-22 [chuckles]. I love my job– I love being a software engineer. I really enjoy the work that I’m doing and learning new things every day. I also so lucky that the best place for me to find a job in my industry is in my hometown where all my family live. That’s also amazing.

At the same time, the change that tech has brought in San Francisco makes me really sad. I recently talked with my boyfriend about how the archetype of San Francisco completely changed from when I grew up here.

I feel like I’m part of the problem and also part of the solution. I wish that more people in tech cared more about people in the city outside of tech. I wish that they were more involved in community and building community, but I don’t feel that. Not in this industry. I feel like they only want to build community within tech or predominantly tech neighborhoods. It’s strange. After coming back here, the change was palpable and it’s only getting worse.

I feel like I’ve been personally trying to get more involved in local community to be part of the solution. I pretty focused on homelessness currently, but also generally on politics. I’m a member of League of Women Voters and trying to be more involved.  I also try to inform people about the connection between tech and politics. For example, wealthy tech investors are often heavily involved in San Francisco and California politics and that’s typically bad for people in San Francisco.

Also I’m involved in St. Francis Homelessness Challenge, run by former mayoral candidate Amy Farah Weiss. It’s basically a year-long challenge trying to provide resources and solutions for people who are experiencing homelessness. I’ve been trying to be more involved by volunteering for the Challenge.

“The change that tech has brought in San Francisco makes me really sad. I feel like I’m part of the problem and also part of the solution. I wish that more people in tech cared more about people in the city outside of tech. I wish that they were more involved in community and building community, but I don’t feel that. Not in this industry. I feel like they only want to build community within tech or predominantly tech neighborhoods. It’s strange. After coming back here, the change was palpable and it’s only getting worse.”

What you think that tech companies could do to be more involved in the city that they’re in?

The first thing is reducing greed. I assume that’s difficult because most startups here run on borrowed money. They’re all running on money given to them by investors, so I suppose they kind of need to be greedy in order to become profitable. I don’t know the best thing to do in order to avoid that.

Certainly, giving back helps. I know many companies offer time off to employees so they can volunteer, but I know people in tech who leave and volunteer outside of San Francisco. So they’ve taken time off to volunteer in a community where they don’t live. Or they’ve gone to volunteer with the ASPCA, so they’re walking dogs.

My high school in San Francisco required two types of volunteer work in order to graduate. 50 normal and 50 core hours. Core hours required you to be out in the community interacting with people in a very real and palpable way. For my core hours, I worked a weekend at St. Anthony’s, an organization that provides essential support to San Franciscans living in poverty. I served food to people, talked with them, and cleaned up afterwards. I also volunteered for Via Services, formerly Crippled Children’s Services. I worked at an overnight camp for people with disabilities and special needs. I helped organize activities and games, helped with cleaning, and general care giving and participation during my time there.

If the tech companies provide time-off to their employees, they should mandate that the time is spent on San Francisco’s people and communities, in other words, things that really matter and actually helped enrich the city.

Another thing companies can do is educate their employees about what’s going on in San Francisco. I doubt something like that would happen though. There’s a crazy story by Pando Daily (https://pando.com/2015/10/26/conway/) that revealed Ron Conway emailed CEOs of companies he had invested in, telling them how to vote in the San Francisco November elections. Of course, you know he was saying, “Vote against Proposition F, the Airbnb law, and vote against Proposition I, the moratorium on housing in the Mission district,”. This is crazy and disturbing, but many people in tech who don’t even know about these things or how the companies they work for are funded by super corrupt people like that. I really do think education, knowledge, and awareness would be helpful in making a better city.

Where do you see yourself here in 5 or 10 years. Are you still going to be working in tech? I’m assuming you’ll still be living here.

Yeah, I think I’ll still be in San Francisco. Practically all of my family is here, so it’s really hard to leave. I have over 50 family members within the Bay Area.

While applying to work for Eventbrite, I applied to work for 18F, which is basically a consultancy that lives inside the federal government. Their funding comes from the United States General Services Administration. 18F basically is contracted out by different agencies in the federal government to work on different websites and improve project management practices. So they’re all across the tech stack, helping the federal government function more efficiently and help citizens gain faster access to services.

“I’m super interested in that: working in civil service and politics. Just doing software engineering for social good or working towards social good. That’s my ultimate goal.”

Unfortunately, the timing of things didn’t quite work out for me because I’m relatively new to software engineering. I was looking for more face-to-face, in-person interaction and mentorship. And most 18F teams are distributed, so many employees work remotely. Sadly, I turned down the offer. But I think that could be in the future for me, assuming 18F is still around after this upcoming election– they better be! I’m super interested in that: working in civil service and politics. Just doing software engineering for social good or working towards social good. That’s my ultimate goal.

What kind of potential do you see in that space? Like what about that potentially is really exciting to you?  What would you like to see tech doing in that space?

There’s so much potential for improvement. There are agencies where many things are not even digitized yet. For example, when I hear about and see photos of the Department of Veterans’ Affairs, I’m just so shocked and saddened by the state of things there. Knowing that soldiers are not receiving the benefits they need after training and fighting for this country, giving up years of their lives to do that work: I look at that and I think, “Wow, there’s so much that we could do. There’s so much that ordinary citizens can do to help all these other [chuckles] ordinary citizens all around us.” That’s really exciting to me because you/we have so much power to affect so many people in a more positive way.

“Tech right now is so focused on money, investments paying off, and profitability. And I’m not interested in that. Getting paid well is awesome, but the fact that you could help people obtain health care, soldiers paid for the time they’ve put in for the country, helping immigrants settle and get legal help: that’s so much more exciting to me.”

Tech right now is so focused on money, investments paying off, and profitability. And I’m not interested in that. Getting paid well is awesome, but the fact that you could help people obtain health care, soldiers paid for the time they’ve put in for the country, helping immigrants settle and get legal help: that’s so much more exciting to me. And there’s so much work that could be done to help so many people in the country.

What advice would you give to folks who are either feeling stuck in tech or trying to transition into tech?

My number one piece of advice is staying really open to whatever path may lead you to tech.

I started out in tech as a customer support agent, and I feel like that’s one of the least glamorous ways: answering phone calls and emails from people asking how to change their password. But, if I hadn’t been open to that, I probably wouldn’t be in the tech industry now.

What you say yes to in order to transition into tech will often surprise you too! Working customer support really helped me empathize with customers and that makes me a much better engineer now. Be open to different possibilities or different paths. You don’t have to pay for a boot camp to learn software engineering, and you don’t have to be a software engineer in order to be in tech. Be open, be willing to do your research, and find other ways to get in the door. Especially for people who can’t afford to pay for boot camp or to take three unpaid months off.

For people who are feeling stuck in tech: many skillsets in tech cross over to lots of different industries. What my friend does as a business analyst is similar to what analysts do in tech. Be a business analyst in tech or be a business analyst in a ton of other industries. Design work also crosses over to a lot of different industries. Even engineering! My boyfriend’s mother actually started out in banking, then ended up running the computers there. She’s now a software engineer for another bank. But she could always go back to banking.

If you’re feeling stuck in tech, you should definitely get out (GTFO). Don’t continue working in the industry if you don’t feel like it’s right for you. Anything’s possible. Of course, it really helps to have a safety net, so first make sure you have that safety net in place before you jump ship. But my overall advice is that you can absolutely use your skills towards other jobs in other industries. Tech is not the end all be all solution.

“My number one piece of advice is staying really open to whatever path may lead you to tech. I started out in tech as a customer support agent, and I feel like that’s one of the least glamorous ways: answering phone calls and emails from people asking how to change their password. But, if I hadn’t been open to that, I probably wouldn’t be in the tech industry now.”