I come from Seattle, Washington. I was born and raised there. My parents were a typical blue collar, working class, immigrant family. They made tofu for a living, and so I grew up in a world where soybeans were everywhere. We sold the tofu to two kinds of customers: regular folks like teachers or gardeners, or to businesses like restaurants. And it was very hard work, working all the time, waking up early in the morning ­ two o’clock in the morning ­ working to six at night. It was pretty intense, but I learned how to work.

What did your parents expect of you in term of a career?

My mom’s the third generation and my dad’s first. They just wanted us to get to college somehow. That was just a dream, because both of them hadn’t gone to college. My dad didn’t go to high school.

When did you first feel any inclinations towards tech or design?

I was lucky to have been born in the era when the Commodore PET came out, which was a little computer. I was also lucky to receive the benefit of the civil rights work in the 60s. Seattle was de­segregated. The people on the poorer side of town were bussed to the richer side of town. I was in the poor side of town. I was bussed to the rich side of town and they had this computer in math class. That’s where I found my first computer in the 70s.

Then you ended up going into software engineering as a student, correct?

Yeah. It was really my parents’ dream for us to go to college and it was either Harvard or MIT. My older brother didn’t get into Harvard, so he was considered a failure [chuckles]. So I said, “Well, I’ve got to get into MIT,” and I got to MIT and studied computer science there.

“If you connect your understanding of technology with an understanding of the history of art, you can do something new. When you do something new, it hurts because nobody likes what you’re doing because it’s different. I think our inclination is to be afraid of that pain.”

When did you become interested in design and then the integration of the two?

Well I think as a child I was said to be good at math and art, but my parents would never tell anybody I was good at art because they felt that couldn’t get you a job. I was “good at math” is what they’d always say. I loved drawing. I loved thinking visually. When I got to MIT, I tried to defect. I discovered this department called “architecture.” My dad figured out what I was doing so, “No, no, no, no, no. You’re not going to be able to feed yourself, so computer science; go back there,” kind of thing. But I used to go to the library at MIT and I would find these books on design. At the time I was probably one of the best icon editors on campus at MIT. Computers were just becoming visual and I was the guy that could make good icons. I thought I was really good at it. Then I found this book by Paul Rand, the graphic designer, and I thought, “Man, he is so much better than I am at this stuff.” [chuckles] That’s how I found the field of design.

Such a huge part of your work is combining tech and art and exploring the integration of the two. When did this feel like a focal point for you more than just doing the work that’s assigned to you?

That’s a great question. I forget all the time that I cared about that, if that makes sense. I’ll be waking up and saying, “Oh yeah, I care about how those two connect.” Then I’m off forgetting everything. “Oh yeah, I care about that.”

I guess it’s because I was lucky in the 80s and 90s to see how, if you connect your understanding of technology with an understanding of the history of art, you can do something new. When you do something new, it hurts because nobody likes what you’re doing because it’s different. Each time you touch that third rail, you’re like, “Ouch! I don’t want to do that. I want to be a regular engineer. Or, I want to be a regular artist.” So I think our inclination is to be afraid of that pain. I’ll come close to it and I’ll go away from it [chuckles] and I’ll come close to it and then go away from it. I’ve always been having this problem. I’ll be in art school, I’ll be in engineering school, I’ll be in Silicon Valley. I’ve always been running from and towards the third rail.

“I’ve always experienced push­back. In art school, I remember in the early 90s my conservative design teachers told me, “Stop making things move on the screen. That’s not right.” Or being at MIT, and my engineering teachers telling me, “Why do you care how it feels, just make it run faster.” I think that anyone messing with the field they’re in, and how it’s “supposed to be” gets in trouble and it goes back to that key question: “How much pain can you take standing at the intersection of fields?” I guess I’ve always wanted to feel that pain. I guess I feel alive in it.”

I don’t think we have time to run through the entire course of your career but at a high level, what aspects of your work have you been proudest of, and what about your work activates you?

Wow. Well I think any creative person you talk to will tell you they’re not really proud of what they’ve done, because they’re still searching. So I don’t think I’m proud of anything I’ve ever done. I think that I’m always surprised when I see something I did in the past ­. What I’ve seen about getting older, is you’re like, “Did I do that? I don’t remember doing that. I guess that was kind of okay, but I could have done better” kind of thing [chuckles]. So nothing in particular, really. I’m glad that I’ve continued to learn, try new things. Being in venture capital is my most ambitious art project to date.

I definitely want to go into that with you, in a little bit. In terms of integrating the tech and art worlds, did people see it the way­ or as naturally as you see it? Like, from a political perspective, has there been push­back from either side, when you’ve for instance been pushing tech onto RISD, or pushing art into Silicon Valley?

Yeah. I think. I’m glad you asked that question. I’ve always experienced push­back. In art school, I remember in the early 90s my conservative design teachers told me, “Stop making things move on the screen. That’s not right.” Or being at MIT, and my engineering teachers telling me, “Why do you care how it feels, just make it run faster.” I think that anyone messing with the field they’re in, and how it’s “supposed to be” gets in trouble and it goes back to that key question: “How much pain can you take standing at the intersection of fields?” I guess I’ve always wanted to feel that pain. I guess I feel alive in it.

What are the problems that you seek to solve with your work?

Right now I want to address the fact that most of the power in the world is controlled by people who understand money, and in many cases have understood it for multiple generations.

Creative people are trained to not care for money. I think because of this, creative peope—when I say creative people, I mean like arts, design, or even engineers who love to make things—or “makers” tend to believe that money is evil, bad, corrupting, dangerous. My passion is to enable makers to understand that money is just a medium. And like all media, it can do good, it can do bad. In the same way we can’t say that all art does good—there are bad artists. There are Evil artists. and so money can be used in the same way: for good, for bad.

Similar but slightly different question: What are the biggest motivators in your work? What drives you?

To question what I know, because I’m supposed to know a lot of things. And each time I feel, “Maybe I understand this,” I’m like, “Oh, I don’t get it.” Being in Silicon Valley has been so humbling. To meet people like yourself who are really in a whole different way of thinking that I overlooked, and didn’t fully understand, and I wasn’t a part of. That’s why for me, living here­­ I’ve been living in like a Millennial, I have no possessions, and am living in Airbnbs and Uber­ing everywhere. To understand how your generation feels right now has been an exciting moment for me. I love this project you’re doing and I love how you imagined it and I love how after you have gone through most iterations of yourself, you came to see this as important and there’s nothing to stop you. You just said, “I’m going to do it. Suddenly, I have 500 people who want to be a part of it.” And I thought, “Thank goodness that people like you are saying, ‘Of course I can. Because technology is something I’m not afraid of, but I’m not just technologist. I’m a person of culture, and I’ll combine them together and show them.’”

“Being in venture capital is my most ambitious art project to date.”

Amen and thank you. This is a little bit of a side step, but you’re on the board of Wieden, and I’m curious to hear how you apply your perspectives and methodology to advertising.

Oh. Well, a lot of my passion is going back to the world of money, the world of control. I’d like to be a creative person who is in board roles who can argue for creative. So on Wieden’s board, I channel the guy who can talk money, but can talk creative too. The questions always have to be not about pure profitability, but creative integrity. And the reason why Dan Wieden brought me into his world is that he wanted to make sure that all the discussions come back to, “Are we a creative culture?” So I like those kinds of roles, where creativity matters at the very top. I recognize that such opportunities are precious, and are meant to be made into something, and to be taken to their fullest.

When was the moment when money became important to you as something integral in the design process?

It was in the year 2001. It was the dot­com crash. And some of my colleagues at MIT owned a lot of stocks. And we were at a meeting where they were facepalming and going, “Oh no, oh no,” because they were losing all kinds of money. I had no money, so I didn’t know what they were talking about [chuckles]. And oh my gosh. Shortly thereafter, MIT did some restructuring, and I remember there was a CFO type person who said to me, “John, you’re the creative person, so don’t worry about the money. We’ll figure it out. You just go and be creative.” And he was maybe the third person in my life who had said the same thing to me. And when someone tells you, “Don’t worry your pretty little head, John. It’s going to be okay,” I get worried. I wonder, “What are you hiding from me?” And I realized, I would read newspapers and not understand the financial terms ­­ and the legal terms too. Sure, I could read People Magazine, one of my favorite things. And it’s so vacuous, and easy to read. But I couldn’t read The Wall Street Journal. And so I did my MBA to begin to learn the language of the finance and business world to get to feeling, “Oh that’s what you’re saying. Oh that’s what I didn’t understand.” Here I was, limited to being told that I’ll do the creative part, and you someone else would do the money part. I wondered, “How much am I giving away? How do I take back my integrity?” That’s where this drive all came from.

Interesting. Did you ever expect to be in Silicon Valley Venture Capital?

Never. I actually had never heard of “venture capital” until I got to Silicon Valley. Well, I kind of heard of it; but I didn’t know what it was at all. In full disclosure, I just sort of bumble into things. With the attitude like, “Oh, I’ll try that,. I’ll try that.” I remember feeling, “Venture Capital? What is that?” Two months before I arrived I bought a book on venture capital. I read it, didn’t quite understand it. So since I’ve arrived, it’s just been a lot of learning. I marveled at how a little bit of money can become a large amount of money? I didn’t know it was possible.  I then wondered, “Wait, so what are the letters? What do they mean? Oh, they’re in sequence. Okay, I get it.” All these things that I had no idea about­­ and just to realize it now in my lifetime has felt like a blessing.

I’ve also found that people who find out I work in venture capital will say to me, “Oh, venture capitalists, they’re bad, bad”. I don’t know what they’re talking about. I know a lot of bad people in the academic world – and some good ones. And I can say I know a lot of good venture capitalists – they’re pretty amazing. I love how their goal is to see the impossible happen. And when we think in this start­up, Silicon Valley world, that’s a kind of a mantra—you know, “Make the world a better place” or whatever—I love that the people who have the funds to power these things, a significant percentage of them, do believe the impossible is possible. I think that’s magic.

Tell me more about your first impressions of Silicon Valley.

Well, you know that my first impression was – the lack of  diversity in tech, and how there aren’t enough women, people of color, and it’s not addressed sufficiently. I noticed it from the very beginning. But then I noticed that it was because I myself wasn’t making a conscious effort to change that in my own activities. Maybe in my first few months I met mainly young white men, because they would introduce me to more young white men. And so after a while I realized, “Oh, maybe I’m doing this wrong. It isn’t that the system is doing me wrong; what do I have to do differently?” So I began asking myself if I’m having ten people that I’m seeing, how can I now consciously edit my direction. I found that my conversations and gatherings became so much better than when they were less diverse.

So when people say that diversity is important, I like to say instead, “No, it isn’t important. It’s essential to increase the quality of discourse.” When I was leading RISD, I had the opposite problem because there were ~70% or more women in the student body. So I would always be like, “So where are the men?” So again, we have to recognize the situation we’re in and we have to take action. But I’m by no means perfect with regards to my diversity record, but I do strive to be conscious, aware, and take action on the matter.

“When people say that diversity is important, I like to say instead, ‘No, it isn’t important. It’s essential to increase the quality of discourse.’“

Tell me about how kind of the culmination of your previous work impacts how you’re approaching your work in VC.

Oh, absolutely. I became president of a college in 2008 because I read the “Audacity of Hope,” and I listened to the audio book and it was so inspiring as an American to hear that anyone, any American, no matter what age, race, or creed can make a difference. “Yes, we can.” So, when the headhunting firm, Spencer Stuart, called me up and said, “Hey, you want to be president of a college?” And I said, “I can’t do that.” But yeah, I finished my MBA, but I don’t have any experience, and I was never a dean or a provost or all these special titles along the way. I can’t do that. And in my voice I could hear, “Yes we can. Yes we can!”

And so Obama became president that year—the same year the financial crisis happened. Me too, I was brought in as a person who was going to bring in new ideas, and then shortly after I arrive I’m overseeing the worst layoff in the history of the place. And I’m no longer a person with ideas, and immediately assume the role of the pragmatist and operator working to navigate a financial crisis. And it was kind of like a sock in the gut and in the face. And so I had to become a different person. And I’m grateful because otherwise I wouldn’t have learned how to operate at scale as a leader.  I wouldn’t have had to reform the business model, or really understand the business of a university, and to understand where every dime goes. That was a great outcome, but a hard process along the way. And so I come to Silicon Valley to learn that this knowledge of how to run an organization at scale through difficult times is valuable here, which I find very promising and positive. It isn’t that people here are all about fail fast. It’s, “Can you recover fast?” And I’ know how to recover – it just takes hard, and smart, work.

Let’s go really macro for a second. How do you feel about the state of Silicon Valley Tech in 2016? What excites you, what frustrates you?

I think what excites me is that there’s a kind of awareness that maybe we need to make things for more kinds of people than those who live in Silicon Valley. You can call it diversity, inclusion, all kinds of things ­­ it doesn’t matter. We recognize there’s a strong business case for matters that impact people who live outside this region, and by knowing what they care about, we can  actually have a bigger impact. That excites me: not the technology. There’s a realization occurring here in this region.

What turns me off? ­­ I don’t know. I mean, so many things get me grumpy in general, I guess [laughter] if there were one thing that ticks me off, it is that certain voices still cannot be heard, and I believe that with the fortune and responsibility in the voice that I have, I want to do everything I can to amplify those voices. But more work has to be done.

I saw that you started a newsletter recently, for Asian­ Americans in tech.

You noticed that. I guess that I woke up one weekend realizing that, “Hey, I’m Asian.” It was this weird moment that came to me. I mean, as an Asian American, I try to hide. I try to fit in, and that’s been my whole life. I’ve always fought for everyone’s cause whether it’s African Americans, Latin Americans, LGBTQ, and any group feeling social injustice at unfair scales. Anyone. Because I know what it’s like to feel different, but I realized recently that I don’t do anything for Asian people, and it was just this, “Why don’t I?” It’s because I don’t want to people to pay attention to the fact that I am not like them. I realized what a disservice I was doing. When I saw Tracy Chou, ­she’s amazing – I felt I had to do something.

She’s in my project!

She’s like Legolas. She’s  like Legolas with the arrows in how deeply she is engaged in these matters. She made me think, “Wow, I’ve got to get off my butt and say something.” That’s why I wrote the essay, “Did I grow up and become the yellow hand?” Am I the type­-O hand on the emoji keyboard that doesn’t stand for any particular skin color or culture? I felt that maybe I should stand for something. That’s why that began. Thanks for noticing that.

I keep an eye on things [chuckles]. I’m on Twitter a lot when I’m not shooting. Let’s see, I’m curious to know your thoughts on how Silicon Valley seems to approach design.

Oh, it’s very exciting. What’s so exciting about how Silicon Valley works is that it lives in the true era that no one could have imagined, where the product is no longer five zones removed from the consumer. There is no need for the intermediary to sell the water bottle that you drink; it’s right there on the other side of the phone’s glass. You’re using the product, and not only that but it’s being used not by a few people but millions of people. So Silicon Valley designers deal with a significantly different kind of design, the design where the product is the brand, is the expression, is delivered in real time, and it can be changed every day if the budget existed. Whereas the old design is, “I’ll make these glasses, I hope they’re awesome. We shipped them; they didn’t sell. Well that’s because I was a genius and people didn’t get it.” Or, “I shipped my glasses and some sold. Hmm, okay well let’s get lucky next time.” Silicon Valley designers live in a world where the thing they’re selling is never going to be done being made, and is being shipped live. That is an amazing thing, and these design outcomes are fundamentally different than how design was done in the past. And the designers suffer at the same time too, because people who made things like in the old world got to finish it. “It’s done. It’s been finalized. It will never change now that it’s done. Isn’t it amazing? It so amazing. It’s done.” Whereas people who design in tech never get to be done. So when I saw that you were a photographer and you were taking photographs, you were able to go back to the world of “done,” because done is the best place to be. But you have both in you. You know exactly what that’s like, you know what this it is like for designers in tech. And you’re still so young, so you’ll find all these new things in your life. It’s being in this imbalanced place, that makes you a unique person in the future, I believe. That new person is part of your project. I think you’ve just started.

Thank you.

You’re like, “Oh, this is something. What is this?” Scratch head, scratch head. This is a good beginning.

This is the kind of work I’ve been wanting to do my whole life, and this is the first month that I feel like I’ve had the time and the resources to do it.

That’s good. You’ve earned it.

I do feel like I’m just at the beginning. So I appreciate the encouragement.

Absolutely.

What are your thoughts on the relationship between tech and art here?

It’s tough. In New York, it’s easy to be an artist, because there’s a lot of artists there. There’s a history of art galleries there. For example, if you’re in Paris, it’s easy to be an artist – it’s also easy to be a mathematician, I hear. Here the spirit of art is not a strong spirit, which I think signals great opportunity. And I think people, like yourself, who can seize the moment and think, “Well, maybe there isn’t a strong art community of a certain art, but maybe there’s a strong community for a different kind of art.” I think that work will be done, and that work has to be done.

Even the fact that you’re reaching out to the world and pulling people into this world that you have ­­ that’s a different kind of art. It’s like Jenny Holzer taking portraits, 80 portraits, live around the world. That feels like a kind of art that’s natural here and can be celebrated, versus old school, like “Let’s take a motor and let’s attach it to a paint can and let’s make art.” And hearing a gallery crowd cheer you on and say, “Oh, my gosh. That was amazing art. It’s right in front of me. It’s finished. It’s done.” That’s not art anymore – at least for people in the future. The new art lives with people. And I think this region would be more likely to understand that. So I’m hoping that the gallery system can evolve to accept that future. I’m sure it’s going to happen, but it’s going to be a problem for a while. If you have more of that kind of art, then the new kind of galleries will emerge, and the market will emerge from that. And I hope that you, Helena, will sell different aspects of your process as products to find that different audience and to help this region talk about art in the new language your generation will create.

One thing I’ve noticed interviewing designers, particularly designers who have worked on the East Coast and in New York city, is the frustration at a lack of philosophy in start­up design. In my experience, I remember at least, when I worked in Tech, how much technical specialization is valued versus philosophy, and I’m curious to see I you have felt any of that yourself.

Yeah. This may be a kind of blasphemy, but I used to be a member of those cults of the old world’s philosophy. I was long a part of the Swiss Typography mafia in Shinjuku. At the time, I loved the perfect movements of type by 0.001 points – where the average human being couldn’t really tell anything had changed. Invisible details, you know? I used to love that. And then I realized it was a cult, and a form of brainwashing. It was a constraining thing. It was a safe place to be, and great to have learned.

So both skills are important – the place of safety that the past provides, and the new things that can be made in the medium of technology. It’s the people who can go across the two, fluidly, that I think this region needs more of. But if you take a viewpoint of, “I know philosophy; you don’t. So you suck.” Or, “I can code; you don’t. So you suck.”

“If there were one thing that ticks me off, it is that certain voices still cannot be heard, and I believe that with the fortune and responsibility in the voice that I have, I want to do everything I can to amplify those voices. But more work has to be done.”

It’s almost like both sides are the same in that way, which is funny to think about.

That’s how sides are made. There are those who say, “I know this; you don’t know that.” Then another person nods in disbelief, “What? You don’t know that? Really? You didn’t know that?” Hmm. I’m so over that kind of thinking. I’m not into that at all. We can all learn from each other.

What are your photographs behind you? What are they?

Some are mine, some are from friends. I try not to have my own photos up there, because it feels like I’m looking at my own iMac screensaver or something.

I understand.

Or having like a portrait of yourself in your bedroom.

It’s a bit awkward, I understand.

Okay, where do I want to go now? What are you working on right now, in 2016, either for work or for yourself?

I’m working on the 2016 #DesignInTech Report ­ ­the second edition. Last year it came out at SXSW. I thought it would get 50,000 views—it had 850,000 views. So, surprise! Sheer luck. I’m like, “Woah.” I’m making the new version—that’s coming out in three weeks, so I’m sitting in front of Keynote, moving things around, and tossing things out. I hope it’s able to communicate this relationship between business, design, and tech that I care about.  I want to keep showing how it’s valuable, and that you can assign dollar signs to it: DESIGN is DE$IGN. Some people consider the dollar signs as being dirty, or just outright wrong. But I consider it work that I get to do right now. So I’m going to do it.

How is life without possessions right now? Do you feel like you’re going to stick to that for a while?

It’s been really great. I was observing how younger people live lighter lives, so I’ve been getting to live that right now. When I was at RISD, I had an 18 room mansion with six bathrooms or whatever, and I didn’t have that much stuff anyways. Now I just kind of have a suitcase and travel light, and after I broke my right arm over the winter holidays by tripping while on a run, I can’t carry as much now. So I’m even lighter now.

That’s interesting because I’ve historically been a person who gets rid of everything she owns every time she moves­­.

Interesting.

And I’ve moved a lot. And this is the first time I’ve ever put things on the wall in my apartment. It’s the first time I’ve ever had more than a Craigslist couch or a Craigslist bed. It’s really new and interesting for me and I think it’s been good for me in a way because I think I would have moved from San Francisco for reasons that don’t even make sense, like, “Things are great. Let me just completely like throw it all at the air and move somewhere else. But this have forced me to be stable for the first time in my life. So I think it might be good for me for now.

That’s the thing; you live different lives. So this part of your life is this.

Where do you see yourself in five or ten years?

Wow. I hope that I’m still involved in the start­up world. I hope I’m making a start­up, or I hope I’m at a start­up. I’ve just learned so much from the start­up generation. I figure I have to learn more by being in that world. That’s what I hope.

My last question for you would be, based on the lessons you’ve learned through your own experience or the experience of those you’ve taught, what advice would you give to young designers just getting their start in tech?

I would strongly suggest that they be curious about business because business is only scary when it’s not understood. People who are creative especially in the tech world will be looked down upon unless they are curious about business. Everyone’s got a different language. The more languages you speak, the more positive damage you can do on the world [chuckles]. So that’s my take.

“I would strongly suggest that they be curious about business because business is only scary when it’s not understood. People who are creative especially in the tech world will be looked down upon unless they are curious about business. Everyone’s got a different language. The more languages you speak, the more positive damage you can do on the world.”

I’m from Colorado. I grew up in Colorado Springs.

My mom is a doctor and a single mom. How do I describe my upbringing? Colorado Springs is famous for like “Focus on the Family” and super conservative Christians. But I wasn’t exposed to any of that, I just had my mom, her medical practice, and all her doctor friends. The problem with this question is that I got poisoned as a child, so I don’t remember anything from before probably thirteen. I have forgotten most of my life actually, I found out recently my husband and I had a wedding that I don’t remember. There are pictures and everything.

Holy shit.

So my whole childhood is basically gone. My mom remembers, you can ask her if you want [laugh]. The primary answer to that question is I don’t know, because it’s gone, all that stuff is just gone. I know I have two brothers and a sister, but I don’t have a lot of anecdotal things from childhood, or even more recently, because it’s just not in my brain anymore. My memory, if you can call it that, is stored entirely in a combination of other people and various kinds of recordings.

“I got poisoned as a child, so I don’t remember anything from before probably thirteen. I have forgotten most of my life actually, I found out recently my husband and I had a wedding that I don’t remember. There are pictures and everything.”

So, if you feel comfortable, what happened?

On my tenth birthday, my family­­ so my mom and my little brother, me and then I think two friends, I don’t know, some small group of people went to a hotel that had a pool to do ten-year-old birthday things.

And the hotel was negligent on their maintenance or something, I don’t remember. There was a lawsuit, I never read the findings, I was too young. So they were negligent and carbon monoxide and chlorine gas and some other gases leaked into the pool area, and my mom and my little brother and me and both my friends were poisoned. But my mom and I got the worst effects, we were poisoned the most. So, my mom and I went from being totally normal to having traumatic brain injuries, but by poison instead of war or football or whatever.

How did those injuries manifest in the early years, and how is it continuing to?

It has changed over the years. Gotten better and worse. I get attacks of uncontrollable shaking. My body is usually in pain. I get a ton of migraines, a fuck ton actually. My proprioception, which is like, the accurate sensation of where your body is in space, and the position you’re in is 80 percent gone which means my balance and walking have good and bad days. I am basically a grab bag of neurological issues: Alice in Wonderland Syndrome to Post-­traumatic Stress Disorder. It’s hard.

I seemed to improve slowly until I was in college, but then when my brain was under stress I got a bad relapse. So I guess my junior year in college I was all way back at the bottom. I couldn’t walk, I was having migraines everyday, I shook constantly. After that I was really bad for several years and I’ve been inching my way back out of that hole ever since.

What about your mom?

My mom, you would describe her as like a stroke victim. Even though that’s not what happened, that’s a thing people understand. She basically got a migraine for 8 years straight. She is doing much better now. Still dealing but better.

Wow. So you probably don’t remember but, as a kid, what did you want to be when you grew up­­?

My mom says I wanted to be a surgeon, which I am now like, “That is the most ridiculous thing I could have ever thought of.” But, of course that’s what I wanted to do. My mom was a doctor and her medical practice was very integrated into our lives so of course I wanted to do medicine. I think my initial “I’m going to college” was pre­-med, until I figured out about chemistry. I was like, “ugh, this is horrible.” Chemistry is the worst. Or at least that’s what I like to tell myself. That I had a choice, that I opted out instead of what really happened which is that I was forced out by my disability.

Did you have any idea at that time that you’d end up in Silicon Valley tech?

No. My BFA is in Theater, Film, and Television Production, so I thought I was going to go into Theater. But I got so sick at the end of school that all of my best laid plans were totally ruined. I was supposed to go work as an assistant stage manager in Tokyo. But I was too sick, there was no way I could take that job, or any job.

So walk me through the winding road that took you to VR.

So after college I was essentially on bed­rest for four years. I shouldn’t say bed­rest. I was home­bound for four years. Walking to the bathroom made me dizzy so I crawled kinda thing. So in that time, I started watching Art21, which is this contemporary art show made by PBS. It’s so fucking good. It’s a collection of artists talking about their work and their lives and their families and it changed my life.

I was laying there on the couch at 20 thinking that this painful bullshit was what the rest of my life was going to be like, and I decided, “Fuck it I’m gonna steal ideas from these people.” So I starting copying their work. Andrea Zittel and Ann Hamilton and Vija Celmins and Kara Walker. These women became my pantheon. Oh and Janine Antoni, Janine Antoni! She’s amazing! She’s from the Bahamas and she would place a tightrope right at the horizon and then she would walk across the tightrope on video and every time she took a step the line would just touch the horizon. So good. She also hand spun this huge rope with all these video tapes and clothes and just any material donated from her friends and family. Antoni made a rope so I made a rope. Zittel crocheted so I crocheted. Hamilton talked about social concepts in cloth so I talked about computational concepts in cloth.

I copied lots of work from Art21 because there was nothing else to do. It was just not what you want to happen right after you get out of college. Like, “I’m going to get an internship, and I’ll be out every night and­­—No. You’re going to lay in bed for four years and be bored.” That was basically the start of like, “I am an artist now.” The art was my entire life at that point, I guess it still is.

When I finally made my own work it was these brightly­-colored abstract crocheted sculptures the size of, ironically, the couch I’d been stuck on. I guess the first time I really showed anything was in 2009, with the Armory Show in New York.

“I was told my thesis work wasn’t art because I made a video game. It wasn’t even a game it was an interactive environment that addressed the contemporary way that we go about knowledge formation. They couldn’t see it. It was weird because I was interested in technology. The work that I was making before, the crochet, was about reenacting computational systems. But they had never seen that either, those works were talked about as “heroic women’s work”. It drove me crazy. The professors never could see crochet as data, as captured information in the shape of a linear thread. But I still graduated, so fuck them.”

*Just* the Armory? [laughter]

Yeah me and galleries have never been much of a thing. Then I used that work, and the credential of that show to apply to grad school. I went to the California College of the Arts over on Potrero Hill. That was the first time I was really out of the house everyday by myself in years. I was 24.

Some of it was great. I found a couple professors that were awesome.

It should come as no surprise that I did not fit in well at school. I had just spent 4 years alone with the exception of my boyfriend. I didn’t know how to human and I was learning to be disabled not just at home in a bubble of my own control but at the school, in classes, on the train etc. Once again I have very few anecdotes of grad school, what with my memory but I know it was both great and really stupid. I got really tough and focused because of school. I am a much better artist now, and I found one professor who I am friends with today who is brilliant and funny and really important to me. But because I wasn’t great at interacting with the other students, so they started calling me The Borg. They were like, “But it’s endearing because we like you,” and I’m like, “No, it’s socially separating and bullying.” But they never stopped.

I was told my thesis work wasn’t art because I made a video game. It wasn’t even a game it was an interactive environment that addressed the contemporary way that we go about knowledge formation. They couldn’t see it. It was weird because I was interested in technology. The work that I was making before, the crochet, was about reenacting computational systems. But they had never seen that either, those works were talked about as “heroic women’s work”. It drove me crazy. The professors never could see crochet as data, as captured information in the shape of a linear thread. But I still graduated, so fuck them.

So what happened after that? I got my first job. I was so proud of myself. I worked as an architectural assistant making drawings and writing their blog. I worked there until she couldn’t afford to pay me anymore. Then I started working for Axis dance company and they’re in Oakland and they’re physically integrated dance company and I worked there for almost two years, man, what I thought at the time was going to be a dream job turned out to be awful. Anyway I also wrote for KQED in there, writing about net art, the internet, and video games mostly, and I was doing a lot of both digital drawing and ink on paper which both turned into making gifs and prints and comic books. It was around that time, in 2013, I started making YouTube videos too. Again copying existing work I liked from Mike Rugnetta and PBS Idea Channel. Huh, twice now PBS has been foundational to my art.

The videos started as talking head style technology and cultural criticism pieces plastered with wild editing. It was a great way to restart with video. I had experience editing short films and features from college but the show, self-titled BlinkPopShift, also leaned hard on the writing and research skills I forged at grad school and KQED. It became a way to think across tech and culture and art and science the same way I had been exploring in my masters thesis, but now everyone, not just the limited pov’s of my professors, could see the result. Simultaneously I built a whole body of work exclusively on my phone, the Still Lives series, using a combination of photogrammetry and various gif making apps.

I became super immersed in Youtube so I went to Vidcon and met Mike Rugnetta and Vi Hart and Malia Moss who all turned out to amazing friends and collaborators. A few months later I got a call from Vi asking “Hey, do you think you could build a VR camera?” And I was like, “Yeah sure, I don’t see why not. That doesn’t seem that hard.” And I was right, I mean it took months of work and cameras melting and trial and error and math but I did it.

“A few months later I got a call from Vi asking “Hey, do you think you could build a VR camera?” And I was like, “Yeah sure, I don’t see why not. That doesn’t seem that hard.” And I was right, I mean it took months of work and cameras melting and trial and error and math but I did it.”

So you just… made a VR camera?

I mean, yeah. We, along with Andrea Hawksley, the three horsemen of eleVR, have been working on various projects in VR, AR, and mixed reality every since. Vi’d hired me to work at the then Communications Design Group, Alan Kay’s Research Lab at SAP. Working for an open lab is great because with no pressure to publish traditional papers, we can write up everything on our blog for anyone to read.

I have to say I was so happy when fully spherical, auto-stitching cameras came on the market and I didn’t have to actually build them by hand with a fucking hot glue gun anymore, which was fun but also so tedious. I focus on studying how immersion works and how aesthetic techniques communicate to viewers. Recently I’ve been building the foundation of spherical cinematography so I can use that knowledge when designing immersive web systems.

What excites you about that space?

Making hybrid reality projects where linkages are no longer limited to computers and screens. When I write or make art, I like to put stuff everywhere but computers in their current conception don’t allow for creative messes. Sure, you can barf icons all over your desktop, but that’s not a creative mess. It feels heavy and in need of “organization.” Good messes feed my creativity through serendipity and flexibility. But my physical messes don’t have search for when I know exactly which bit of red paper has to go on the collage next. That divide between the physical and the digital will close, ‘cause me and my vice grip say so.

But that also means taking seriously the considerations of what the body wants. Because like, we are not fingers with eyes and ear holes. The way we do knowledge creation has a lot to do with this flappy meat thing. We completely disregard its wants and needs and its ideas about the world for what, a touch screen? This is the most embodied form of computational media that we have? Pinch and zoom and swipe and tap? Gross. There’s so much touch you can’t get in the little rectangles we carry around everywhere, it drives me crazy.

“When I write or make art, I like to put stuff everywhere but computers in their current conception don’t allow for creative messes. Sure, you can barf icons all over your desktop, but that’s not a creative mess. It feels heavy and in need of “organization.” Good messes feed my creativity through serendipity and flexibility. But my physical messes don’t have search for when I know exactly which bit of red paper has to go on the collage next. That divide between the physical and the digital will close, ‘cause me and my vice grip say so.”

What is it like straddling two worlds—art and tech—that often feel at odds with each other?

At work, I don’t feel at odds because like they specifically set up the lab for that kind of cross disciplinary flexibility. I am the most traditionally “visual art” person there, which I find funny since in grad school I was the most “tech” person, but being a weird inbetweener is kinda our thing at the lab. But when I’m out of my bubble it’s really hard because my work, and probably my personality too, is hard to parse as either or, as art or tech, as artist or researcher. A good example is that I don’t go to VR meetups any more. Everyone was too newness focused. There was no bubbling curiosity, no juicy conversation. It was just, sorry to say it but, a bunch of white dudes being boring. Ugh, tech Industry problems.

What are the biggest motivators behind your work?

I make art for two people, which people do not like to hear, but it’s true. I make sculpture for Steve Sedlmayr, my husband, who is such a fucking treasure, we’re 12 years this summer, and I make video for Vi Hart, who is one of my best friends and my boss. That’s it. The sculptural work is for him and the video work is for her. When I can make either of them tilt their head or think “What is that?” or smile or laugh or say “Yes. More please,” that’s winning.

There is definitely a subtle pressure from social media to care about a bigger audience and I do have a small audience online. Some people watch the videos online, and some people read the stuff that I publish, and that’s great but I don’t crave their opinions. For me, seeing Vi watch a video and afterward be like, “Damn!” That’s my chocolate sundae.

“I am the most traditionally “visual art” person there, which I find funny since in grad school I was the most “tech” person, but being a weird inbetweener is kinda our thing at the lab. But when I’m out of my bubble it’s really hard because my work, and probably my personality too, is hard to parse as either or, as art or tech, as artist or researcher. A good example is that I don’t go to VR meetups any more. Everyone was too newness focused. There was no bubbling curiosity, no juicy conversation. It was just, sorry to say it but, a bunch of white dudes being boring.”

I think it’s like you’ve miraculously managed to achieve something that I’m just starting to achieve—the “art of giving no fucks.”

I think it’s absolutely pivotal—or giving exactly the right fucks. You’re going to give a fuck about someone’s opinion, but just give it to exactly the right ones. My husband, he is also an artist. He makes games now but he knows a lot about sculpture and is really interested in sculpture. Making a sculpture for him is so powerful and awesome and his feedback really pushes me. Don’t give no fucks, just give the right ones.

I love it. What are your thoughts on the state of tech in 2016, both the tech that you considered tech and the tech that a lot of people consider tech?

Tech is so confusing. What even is the technology industry? Are search engines and camera manufacturers and Crispr therapies and video games really in the same industry? I feel like we use “the tech industry” the same way people used to “big business.” What is that thing I hear over and over about Uber? “Uber is a taxi company, not a tech company.” Bakers with online delivery are still bakers. Podcasters with an app are still in the business of podcasting. Tech is just a lazy over simplification of the Bay Area’s $785.5 billion economy that makes it all the more frustrating for people like me to take my work out into the world. I’m not an academic and I don’t make a product… I make art to do research.

Condensing all these different companies into a thing we call the tech industry does gives us something to blame for the city’s problems. The industry is refusing to act as proactive stewards of the place where their employees live. It seems like a lot of money’s being made and not very many taxes are ending up in city coffers. There is clear evidence that private corporate bus lines do increase evictions near their bus stops. Rents are increasing along with poverty.

“Tech is so confusing. What even is the technology industry? Are search engines and camera manufacturers and Crispr therapies and video games really in the same industry? I feel like we use “the tech industry” the same way people used to “big business.” What is that thing I hear over and over about Uber? “Uber is a taxi company, not a tech company.” Bakers with online delivery are still bakers. Podcasters with an app are still in the business of podcasting. Tech is just a lazy over simplification of the Bay Area’s $785.5 billion economy that makes it all the more frustrating for people like me to take my work out into the world.”

Homelessness is intensifying as more people are flooding into the Bay Area chasing after those sweet, sweet jobs. Did you know 70% of the homeless population in San Francisco was housed in the last year? Along with all these changes fear mongering about the collapse of San Francisco’s weirdo based culture. Most people would say that I’m being naive, that corporations have no obligation to nurture the community in which they exist, but if you don’t do that—if you don’t support the community—then all you’re doing is going to Southeast Asia and cutting down the mangrove forests and planting palm trees so that you can get palm oil. There it looks like environmental destruction, here it looks like community destruction. We have to grow out of the self centered capitalism that disregards the larger systematic effects until disaster strikes. We have to take responsibility for that because we’re not heartless idiots who just stomp around the world with our big dumb America boots. I don’t want to be that kind of America.

Man. It is kind of wild to think that big tech is actually necessary for new innovation to survive long term.

Oh yeah, I totally agree but also like big tech is completely dependent on Chinese money, right? Like a lot of VC money comes from China and that’s fine. I’m not saying it shouldn’t come from China but if that’s going to be true, then you also need to take into consideration the health of the system of products and money and labor is there too. The whole system should be healthy, not just any individual part of it. Why is making as much money as possible still a thing? Who in their right mind is motivated by I want to make as much money as humanly possible. Why? It’s boring. Come on. Look I was raised by a woman who taught me that holistic world views were the only path to true equality, whether that’s in a body or a society, and I hold that as a core value to this day.

“We have to grow out of the self centered capitalism that disregards the larger systematic effects until disaster strikes. We have to take responsibility for that because we’re not heartless idiots who just stomp around the world with our big dumb America boots. I don’t want to be that kind of America.”

Total side note, but maybe possibly related, I remember reading that you have received death threats for speaking your mind.

Oh yeah [chuckles] yeah, that was a problem. My team and I went to the first Oculus Connect, and there was an open panel, and it was being live streamed on the internet. And they were like, ”Anyone could come up and ask a question.” And there was 1% women at this conference and very few people of color and there were no female speakers and I was mad. So I went up and asked how they planned to prevent the clear race and gender biases of their conference and the industry as a whole from doing to VR what sexism and racism has done to video games.

And they answered it really poorly. It was so lame. But since I am female and it was live streamed that question turned into doxing, and death threats on 4chan and Reddit. We had to get our corporate security officer to intervene. It was scary. I hadn’t expected such an infantile response. I felt so naive. I’m still super naive, because I still assume that everyone wants everyone to be equal. Also, people who do death threats are so uncreative. I felt like they were just copy and pasting from Anita Sarkeesian‘s death threats.

I’m curious, are you able to give no fucks about that or­­…?

I don’t care.

That’s good.

Yeah but I have the ability not to care because of my privilege. 1. I’m white and cisgender and 2. I work for a place that can provide corporate security. Privilege means the death threats are less meaningful to me.

“The whole system should be healthy, not just any individual part of it. Why is making as much money as possible still a thing? Who in their right mind is motivated by I want to make as much money as humanly possible. Why? It’s boring. Come on.”

How do you think tech could be more accommodating right now to a more diverse set of people?

I mean hire them? I love Ta­-Nehisi Coates’s phrase “People who believe themselves to be white…” so I would say people who believe themselves to be white should maybe consider people who do not believe themselves to be white. People always complain the lack of diversity is a pipeline issue which is such blame shifting horse shit. If you think of people like crude oil who can only reach your factory via a standardized and maintained pipeline then maybe you shouldn’t be a company. Or hire people who you perceive to be less qualified. Because your perceptions of someone’s lower qualifications are based on your own biases. Go around saying that you’re biased. Be like, ”Hello. I’m white, and I have white people bias.” No one is going to think that you’re a horrible, evil person by acknowledging the fact that you’re biased. Everybody is biased, just acknowledge it, and then build systems to make sure that it doesn’t affect the population of your company. Super simple things. When you have a varied population of employees, go to them and be like, ”Hi. How are we not helping you to do your best work? Please tell me? We are trying to do better.” Be a person with feelings and failings for fuck sake.

What advice would you have for someone who wants to do meaningful work in tech, but doesn’t know where to start?

Pretend like you can accomplish the thing that you want, and write about it as though it were an inevitability. Write about how the meaningful tech that you want to make is the most important thing in your whole life. Read those writings into a camera. Publishing all of it online. Repeat. Thinking publicly and meaningfully about what it means to use a computer, what it means to use your phone, what it means to use stuff that you want to exist in the future will not only hone your ideas but attract interested bees. Write up design documents for your fake thing. Make drawing of it. Research. Don’t make a product. Go to the library. Because that’s what I do. I don’t make a product. I don’t make technology, really. I make art. I think deeply about the stuff I make and I write about it in clear ways people can connect with.

“People always complain the lack of diversity is a pipeline issue which is such blame shifting horse shit. If you think of people like crude oil who can only reach your factory via a standardized and maintained pipeline then maybe you shouldn’t be a company. Or hire people who you perceive to be less qualified. Because your perceptions of someone’s lower qualifications are based on your own biases. Go around saying that you’re biased. Be like, ‘Hello. I’m white, and I have white people bias.’ No one is going to think that you’re a horrible, evil person by acknowledging the fact that you’re biased. Everybody is biased, just acknowledge it, and then build systems to make sure that it doesn’t affect the population of your company. Super simple things. When you have a varied population of employees, go to them and be like, ‘Hi. How are we not helping you to do your best work? Please tell me? We are trying to do better.’ Be a person with feelings and failings for fuck sake.”

I’m Canadian. I was born and raised in Ottawa, Ontario—the capital of Canada. I was born to a quite young, single, soon-to-be-lesbian mother (she came out when she was three months pregnant) who had just left home. She didn’t know what the heck she was doing but had me anyway. There were not a lot of lesbians having children in the 70s, those who had them were coming out of straight marriages and had to be careful not to get their kids taken away, so she was a rare bird and it meant I also didn’t know a lot of other kids that had queer parents. So, my early years were unique in that way.

“I was born to a quite young, single, soon-to-be-lesbian mother (she came out when she was three months pregnant) who had just left home. She didn’t know what the heck she was doing but had me anyway. There were not a lot of lesbians having children in the 70s, those who had them were coming out of straight marriages and had to be careful not to get their kids taken away, so she was a rare bird and it meant I also didn’t know a lot of other kids that had queer parents. So, my early years were unique in that way.”

My mom was also an activist, feminist, and non-traditional woman (might be read as butch but never identified as such). She drove a taxi, did woodworking and construction, she DJ’d queer and women’s dances, and she was very active in Ottawa socially and politically. She was a role model for doing all sorts of different jobs and not knowing how it will all add up later.

She was also strong in math and logical thinking and that’s something I’m grateful for.  We’d play games at the grocery store doing the math on which size of a product was the best deal for the money. This was fun for me and a necessity for her. She didn’t earn much money so we never had a lot of stuff as I was growing up. My grandparents were my primary source of school supplies, clothes, toys, and candy, not my mom. She was on social assistance or earning a very low income so I was never certain I was going to go to university. I earned good grades and figured there might be scholarships.

My first 3 years of high school I was trying to fast track—my plan was to go to Queens University and be a lawyer, because I liked to argue. I was fast-tracking to do high school in four years instead of five by just doing the required classes instead of any electives so that I could get out of there faster, both away from my mom but also I needed to get the heck out of the country high school I was going to. Instead, I ran away from home at 17 and my school track slowed down. I ended up splitting my last year of course work back into a two year spread so I was only half time and just managed to complete high school while on social assistance. I filled out the university applications like everyone else, because it was free to do from high school, but I didn’t know how to follow up with interviews for the programs I applied to (film and animation) and I had no idea about student loans so I didn’t get into any of my choices.

“We never had a lot of stuff as I was growing up. My grandparents were my primary source of school supplies, clothes, toys, and candy, not my mom. She was on social assistance or earning a very low income so I was never certain I was going to go to university.”

At 19 I moved to Montreal from Ottawa and got involved in the political activism there through the women’s center at Concordia University. There I also learned about student loans and I applied again to University the next year. I was trying to get into film animation. I had always really wanted to make animated films but I couldn’t get into that program because I’d never taken enough art to have a portfolio. It was kind of a bummer because it’s like “I’m going to pay you for this degree, can’t I learn?” I had been drawing and doing comics my whole life, but not with any kind of formal training.

I ended up going into Women’s Studies because that’s what accepted me and I did a year and half of Women’s Studies. Then I dropped out when it got hard because I didn’t actually have any study skills. I did really well in high school without having to try very hard and suddenly, in university, I didn’t—I reached the limits of what I knew how to do off the top of my head. So I freaked out and dropped out and spent the next 10 years doing minimum wage jobs and evading loan collectors. That’s the early years.

At that point, I’m assuming you had absolutely no idea you’d be in Silicon Valley?

Oh my god no! I didn’t have any idea I’d be in Silicon Valley—didn’t even really think about its existence. I first was introduced to it in 2008 when I came out here to do an internship at Mozilla, which was across the road from the Google Mountain View campus.

I went back to school in 2005. I was turning 30. I was like, I need a job where I can get my teeth fixed. I figured I’d go punch a clock at IBM or something and have a decent middle-class income. And probably still live in Toronto, which is where I lived and went to school.

Discovering Open Source, getting involved with Mozilla, and then coming out here with a high-paying internship and being a part of the tech boom happening here—it’s nothing I could have imagined. I tried to move to San Francisco in 1997 as a young, broke queer. I worked under the table at a cafe and made $100 a week, which was barely enough to eat a Snickers bar for dinner and take the bus to work the next day. I didn’t know how to be an illegal alien here, had no safety net, and was not making enough money. At that same time a lot of my friends were being evicted, because of the first dotcom boom, and people were losing their housing, and moving further and further away from Mission/Valencia area. I was here for three or four weeks, and then had to go back to Canada, and go back to my own minimum wage jobs there. So I always wanted to come back and try again.

When the Mozilla job offer came through, I realized Mozilla would pay for me to move, and take care of my work visa, and I’d have health care. It felt like I had a red carpet rolled out for me returning. But I got back here to something akin to a funeral, for what San Francisco was. And again, people are being evicted, and there’s all this loss of radical queer & artists community. Then the housing market crashed. Everyone except for people in my industry was feeling it. At my job, we were still getting yearly raises.

“I went back to school in 2005. I was turning 30. I was like, I need a job where I can get my teeth fixed. I figured I’d go punch a clock at IBM or something and have a decent middle-class income.”

Wow. How jarring was it for you going from—I saw when I was stalking you online that six years ago you were making less than 10k a year, you grew up in poverty—and now you’re living a different life?

There’s an interesting trajectory there. I was very much—and my mom was like this too, spend everything you’ve got. You get a check and you spend it. In some ways, I was always very comforted by not having any money, because then I couldn’t sabotage it or mess it up. It was like, ‘I’ve spent all the money I’m going to spend, I have whatever groceries that are in my fridge, I have my bus pass in my pocket, I have my carton of cigarettes’ (when I smoked). I just took care of the things that were essential and then that was it. There was nothing else to worry about. I knew where to get free food. There is a certain ease to being broke when all your friends are also broke.  Everything we did for fun was free or super cheap.

I got a job offer at the end of my internship. I had been getting paid $5,000 a month to be an intern and I was saving it up to pay for the last year of school (eating 15 free meals a week at Google was instrumental in saving $), and I got a job offer of $60,000 for my first year out of school. To know that I was going back to school to finish up eight months and then to have a job right after, that paid so well, blew my mind. My mom was at the top level of her current career in government. She was—I should have mentioned this, she went back to school as soon as I left home at seventeen and she got a bachelor’s and a master’s really quick and then worked herself back into a middle class financial situation. She had grown up middle class. She got herself back into that and her partner, who she’s been with for 30 years now, comes from a  middle class background—two parents who are both PhD English professors, so they have a very comfortable life. They’re very thoughtful and conscious people who get to live very well. They don’t live extravagantly or anything, but they also make good money. And my mom, I think, has managed to probably catch up for all those years of struggling financially.  She’s supposed to retire in the next couple of years and I’m watching how that works out for her since she’s my main role model.

I observed her doing that, I observed another person who did that—going back to school then shooting up into a middle class job after not having money—and that was why I went back to school for a bachelor’s degree. I was also thinking “I’m doing it eight years earlier than my mom, so maybe I get eight years of advantage.” And I really did. I came out of the four year degree with a $60,000 job offer. My mom was making $92,000 at her top level government job. So I thought “Wow, I really am fast-tracking.”

“I tried to move to San Francisco in 1997 as a young, broke queer. I worked under the table at a cafe and made $100 a week, which was barely enough to eat a Snickers bar for dinner and take the bus to work the next day.”

The first couple of years I could pretend I still lived on $20,000 a year and feel like I was doing really good, and I fast-tracked paying off all my debts. My moms had to lend me money to do this degree because I had defaulted on student loans when I was 20 and I couldn’t access any student loans this time around. They were giving me a monthly stipend and paying my tuition and the deal was I’d pay them back half of their total spend, with no interest, which was an amazing deal.  I owed them $27,000 coming out of school, and I payed that all back in the first year. I also payed back $15,000 worth of credit card debt from supplementing working 20 hours while being in school full time.  Then I had a list of things I had to take care of. I had to get a bunch of crowns on my teeth because I had a ton of root canals with only temporary fillings on them. Probably $7000 went into my teeth in the first couple years. I also wanted to get top surgery more than anything in the world, so I did that in 2010.

I was debt free for exactly one month before my then-partner and I, bought a house in 2011. I signed my name on a $457,000 mortgage. I was literally debt free for one month. I went on a shopping spree in New York and got some new jeans and an expensive shirt and was like, “Woo-hoo. I don’t have to carry any debt this month!” and then we bought a house in San Francisco.

After we bought a house I did the last thing on my “perfect world” wish list which was getting Lasik and now I’m like a bionic person. I remember a time when I thought, “all I want is to be able to always have cigarettes and buy a beer at the end of the work day.” Now things are different. I don’t want those things anymore. I make all this money. What am I going to do with it?

I’m trying to learn how to do good things with money. I spend a lot of time trying to figure that out. I can just give money away. I pay more than half of things when I make more than somebody. For example, with my current roommate situation, we split the rent based on our respective incomes.  We don’t just split the rent in half because she makes a third of what I make. It’s nice to be able to do that. I love buying people dinner. I spend a lot of money on travel too, for me and also for others. That was totally new to me, jumping into this class. I’ve been to Vietnam, Mexico twice, Europe a handful of times. I had previously left the continent once when I was 15 on a school trip to London & Paris that my mom borrowed $1500 from my grandparents to pay for and they never let her forget it. I also do this thing called vacation, where you go away and read books and lay in sunshine. I learned how to do that and how to travel in different countries.  I got a first-class upgrade once. It was to my grandmother’s funeral, so I was a little bit like, “I’m so excited to fly first-class, but it’s a red-eye and I should be sleeping, but I can’t sleep because we’re getting cookies on a plane! It’s like two in the morning and I’m going to eat these cookies and watch all the free movies!”

“I feel like I’m in this industry because I want to shovel out as many resources as possible from its coffers but also so that I can make a getaway after a few more years and then me and all my people who don’t make this kind of money, who don’t have retirement plans, who don’t have this kind of financial stability, we get to go have a good life somewhere quiet. I don’t believe in doing this just for me. I have to do this for other people too, as many as I can. It’s not even enough. The wealth gap is growing so fast and even with the money I’m personally making, I can’t stop it or feel like I’m doing enough to help others.  Sometimes I want to run away from making money, go back to when things were easier and I wasn’t part of a very hated industry.”

I used to just road trip around Canada and the US. That was what we did. Just get in the car and drive to someone else’s town and sit around their mall or whatever.

I feel like I’m in this industry because I want to shovel out as many resources as possible from its coffers but also so that I can make a getaway after a few more years and then me and all my people who don’t make this kind of money, who don’t have retirement plans, who don’t have this kind of financial stability, we get to go have a good life somewhere quiet. I don’t believe in doing this just for me. I have to do this for other people too, as many as I can. It’s not even enough. The wealth gap is growing so fast and even with the money I’m personally making, I can’t stop it or feel like I’m doing enough to help others.  Sometimes I want to run away from making money, go back to when things were easier and I wasn’t part of a very hated industry.

Let’s dig in deeper on what you just said. What is your experience straddling communities of different levels of privilege. One being tech, and others being the queer/activist communities. Especially in San Francisco. What is that like for you?

Moving to San Francisco and having most people not know me here before I arrived with a job in tech—sometimes I feel really ashamed. I’m like, “I went back to school so I could fix my teeth, and I come here and it doesn’t matter who I am inside. I just look like a douchebag to people who don’t know me,” and that’s—and not only because I work in tech, but because I pass as a white guy to most strangers. There’s all these ways in which nobody sees the complexities and in some circumstances those complexities don’t matter. I just have to live with that. People are going to make the judgements they are going to make but it’s scary in San Francisco because it’s a super radical activist community that I wanted to come out and be a part of but I tiptoed around it for the first couple years because I was afraid people weren’t going to like me. I went back to school in software development because I liked computers my whole life and was pretty confident with them but also because I thought it would be a good skill to bring back to my communities. I had worked with some artist nonprofits in Toronto and they’re using the oldest computers, and they’re locked into proprietary software they can’t update because they can’t afford to update it. There’s just all these inefficiencies within non-profits because of a lack of tech fluency, and I was always the person who could fix computers or took a natural shine to that kind of stuff, so I thought why don’t I enhance that in what I go back to school for. It seemed like a good fit, I’ve always liked computers, I was the kind of person if I went to someone’s house and they had a computer- because I didn’t have my own computer until 2003. If I went to someone’s house and they had a computer I’d be like “oh can I hop on your computer?” When I got here I joined this queer SF mailing list and I would send messages saying, “Hey, if anybody wants to learn programming, I’d love to teach you what I know.” Nobody took me up on it. Nobody was interested. And nobody was getting mad at me for it either, but it just felt like I shouted to the dark, and I didn’t really understand why.

“Sometimes I feel really ashamed. I’m like, “I went back to school so I could fix my teeth, and I come here and it doesn’t matter who I am inside. I just look like a douchebag to people who don’t know me,” and that’s—and not only because I work in tech, but because I pass as a white guy to most strangers. There’s all these ways in which nobody sees the complexities and in some circumstances those complexities don’t matter. I just have to live with that.”

Sometimes people will approach me and be like, “Oh, I want to learn how to do what you do,” because they see the part where I have this financial stability, and who doesn’t want that? And I want that for people. So I’m like, “Yeah,” and then they’ll say, “But I hate computers,” and say, “Well, then I don’t know if I can help you.” You have to like this stuff a little bit or find at least some part of it interesting.

Then I started to wonder if maybe my role isn’t necessarily to help with the actual technology, even though I do as much as possible, like I’ll get used laptops from my workplace to people for whom a 2 year old laptop is a game changer, repurpose older model cell phones. There are ways in which I can help out in random instances with hardware, sometimes maybe I help someone with a website, though I don’t have much time to do that now that I work so much. These days it seems like the way I can help my community more is often through straight up funding and spreading fundraising asks to my networks which now contain more people who are outside of queer & activist communities—so I can help tap new sources.

Personally I’m curious, as someone—I grew up in a tiny town, moved here with $40, was broke as shit for a long time. And now I make a good living, and I found success to a degree. And the most prominent feeling from the entire experience, that I still experience today, is guilt. I’m really curious if you feel that too?

Yeah. Oh yeah, absolutely, I feel guilty. I managed to get myself a do-over and things went really well and I didn’t feel like I could take any pride in what I had done. Other people tell me I should, but I can’t. I have a really hard time with doing well while other people are suffering or struggling, and yet, at the same time, when I was broke, it wasn’t fun. I don’t miss that stress. I’m still so aware of some of that stress. I have the newest car now. I got a used Prius, a 2009, and it always starts. I get to do preventive maintenance on it, which no car I’d ever owned before got. I always had cars with weird electrical problems, horns that didn’t work, shot brakes, no heat, just stressful breakdowns waiting to happen around every corner.  It costs a lot more to have a car like that than it costs me to have this 2009 car but I would never have been able to qualify for a car loan before now.

I felt a lot of guilt when a friend of mine said, “You forget what it’s like to not have money,” or when I mention things like retirement. That’s the new thing I want to start focusing on, and I want to figure out ways of building a collective retirement fund or otherwise making sure that I’m not just saving for individual private success because my retirement is not going to be very fulfilling if my friends aren’t there. We don’t have a lot of ways to talk about this kind of stuff with people and I have a tendency to just try to give stuff away rather than be the person who has more. I’m not 100% sure that’s the best thing to do, but it’s all I know right now.

“When I was young and broke and people said how rich people have problems too, I’m like, “Whatever. They have money. I don’t believe you.” And now I make what to me is a ridiculous amount of money and I’m feeling that struggle to be happy. To be clear, some of the things I need to work on for my own happiness will exist at any income level but some of the factors are a direct result of being in such a different place than many of my peers. The guilt, stress, and shame are a constant source of exhaustion.  I don’t have any role models for this, and I have no idea what I’m doing.”

My ex is a public college teacher and she never got a raise the whole six years we were together. When we first got together, I was making almost as much as she was and by the time we split up I was making twice what she is. Every year I would come home and say I got a raise—every year that I got a raise—her face would just fall. She would be saying, “Oh, that’s really good for you,” but her entire face belied what she was saying because it was so obviously really hard for her to hear that and it was hard for me too. She should have been getting raises.  But did I wish I did not do it—not make more money, not get a raise, not bring that into our home and into our community? I don’t know.

Recently I have started to say I have five years left in this industry because I’m having a really hard time with the stress. When I was young and broke and people said how rich people have problems too, I’m like, “Whatever. They have money. I don’t believe you.” And now I make what to me is a ridiculous amount of money and I’m feeling that struggle to be happy. To be clear, some of the things I need to work on for my own happiness will exist at any income level but some of the factors are a direct result of being in such a different place than many of my peers. The guilt, stress, and shame are a constant source of exhaustion.  I don’t have any role models for this, and I have no idea what I’m doing.  I’m often curious how this works for other people who come from financially stable upbringings and who are making this kind of money in their 20s.

Yeah. Well, they probably never had to live on less.

I think they probably are saving a lot of money and not spending a lot of money. But that they consider themselves as not having a lot of money. Which isn’t how I approach it at all. I really had to learn how to save money and to learn to protect my savings account from myself. You know, the me that likes to just spend all the money so I don’t have to worry about fucking up with the money? Now I have learned to save money and then I have this little savings account that is growing with these automatic deposits and it got to a size where I was like, okay now I want to protect it—I don’t want to touch it. But I had never had that ability before to, like, put money aside and not touch it. I think that people who came up with money or who came up with security don’t worry about money like this—especially the tech guys who behave like “It’s not even about money. I just do it because I love it.” I call bullshit on that. You’re making money doing it! I don’t know if you’d be doing it if you also had to scramble for your next meal or didn’t have power and literally couldn’t do it because you didn’t have power. I think that they have a much more compartmentalized idea of budgeting and saving and things that let them think what they’re living on is what they have instead of counting their total wealth.  Not to mention anyone who might have someone preparing their meals, cleaning their home, doing their laundry, or raising their kids.

Yeah.

Imagine that saying:  It takes money to make money. For me, making money was a bit of a slippery slope at first because I was still doing things like spending a lot of money on a credit card and then paying it off with my next paycheck. I still haven’t figured out how to have the money for something I want to buy before I buy it.

Yeah. It sounds like we have very similar relationships to money [laughter].

Tell me more about the Ascend project.

That was my attempt to try to scale up what happened to me. I got involved in Open Source at Mozilla through school. I was a student at the time and I got to work on fixing bugs and was supported and grew into being a respected contributor to the Mozilla Project through continually showing up. That helped me secure an internship which helped me get my first tech job which helped me get to the $60,000 a year new grad gig. With all these code schools coming up, that were charging people, especially people coming from the underrepresented populations who are desperate for an opportunity to get a little bit of this tech money, it looked very predatory to me, and it still does. I wanted to see if I could do something where I could replicate what worked for me. Which was that you get involved, you get a chance to be free to do nothing but learn all day how to contribute to Open Source. Because contributing to Open Source is often a really important marker for someone who wants to try to break into a job in technology. And that’s often reserved for people who have this thing called “spare time,” which is really helped by someone else doing your laundry, cooking your dinner, and raising your kids. Right? This program was inspired by the thinking: what if we paid people to have the time to sit all day in a guided environment like I had with my teacher in school—where their only job is to learn how to be a contributor to open source to make a technical contribution by the end of six weeks.

I had an executive at Mozilla who was very supportive of my plan. We would pay participants an honorarium, cover childcare as needed, transit, we provided breakfast & lunch, we provide a work space, we provided laptops that they would get to keep after the 6 weeks were up and then we walked them through a lot of the stuff that I went through. I did a 12 or 13 week college course where I was in class once a week and then I did the project work in my own time. Ascend was an accelerator so we did six weeks, five days a week, nine to five. I wanted it to be only for people of color and that didn’t happen mostly for reasons of time and then also my own limits of knowledge & connection with Portland.

I had just read a study by the woman who wrote Unlocking the Clubhouse about women in CS and she did a second follow up study on Latinos and Blacks in tech based on L.A. high school students and she highlighted how those populations are actively dissuaded from getting involved in CS at all. Seriously—like “this isn’t for you.” I definitely wanted to work with people who are being told that they shouldn’t be here.

I was running it in Portland because Mozilla had an office in Portland. Immediately people were making fun of me for trying to do something that was reaching out to people of color in Portland because it’s 73% white. If it’s 73% white, that means there are people of color there and I only needed 20 people, so I still thought “this is possible.” I keynoted at a local open source conference to announce it. I was also able to hire a friend who was a WordPress developer and small business owner in Portland. She was a local person and she had freelancing skills I didn’t have so I asked her to come co-lead with me and bring those areas into the curriculum too. She also happens to be a black lesbian woman in tech. It seemed wise to have a good local role model/mentor because I was going to come in and teach and then go back to San Francisco.

“I had a manager who was really great. He was very clear about calling me she, as I had asked, and he would do what I call “pronoun showdowns” on my behalf which is when my manager is calling me ‘she’ to someone who’s calling me ‘he’ and they just go back and forth like that until the other person’s on board. I love watching other people do that instead of having to do it myself.”

I put the call out and I got 43 applicants and I had budget for 20 participants. I interviewed everybody who made it past a programming challenge (free online Javascript course) in order to select people. Out of 20 people, 18 completed the program. 1 of them had to go back to Mexico to deal with a family situation and then for immigration reasons was not able to return to Portland to complete. Another person I had to ask to leave the program because he wasn’t pulling his weight. He was falling asleep in class and not really participating. He just wasn’t at a level of maturity to be able to do the self-directed work that was required in this program. We were there to support and also to expose them to stuff and to try to help them connect the dots, but it was really a guided self-learning space. That was intentional so that each person was learning at their own pace, the idea being that wherever they came in at, six weeks later they were six weeks further from that point in terms of having picked up new skills. It was not the goal that they all hit each milestone in the same way.

It ended up being a really great cohort. There were a range of ages. I discovered a whole new demographic of people that I hadn’t even considered when it comes to not getting great opportunities in tech, which is women over 45 who already have experience in technology but cannot get interviews to save their lives because it’s like they disappeared from the view of anyone looking at resumes. The only advice I could give them was not to put the year they graduated on their resumes. We had three trans women and one trans man. We had 15 women and 5 men. Half the group were people of color. It was a mix of class backgrounds—some people who were actively street involved. The guy that I had to ask to leave was homeless at the time and when we talked about it not being a good fit he said, “It’s because I’m on the street.” I was like, “No, actually, it’s not just that. We asked you not to fall asleep in the classroom because it’s hard on the other 19 people to watch you sleeping while they’re trying to learn. We asked you to leave the classroom if you couldn’t stay awake and we provided a room where you could nap. You couldn’t stand up and go to the nap room and have a nap.” It was really that he wasn’t able to grab the opportunity this time around. He’s a really smart guy, and I hope there will be other opportunities.

I had lined up a few internships for these folks to apply to after. There were a couple internships at a place called Urban Airship. It was intentional that it be two so that the graduates could lean on each other and not be the only non-traditional intern coming in off the street. Outreachy had some internship spots, which is a Open Source Intern Project for non-traditional and non-student people. Three of the participants got into those. One of the women who did the program worked at AgileBits. She helped a couple of people get jobs there afterward. So there’s a pretty decent amount of success for folks that did the program. What’s sad to me, actually, is that the three trans women who did the program, not one of them got an internship or job out of this. And that’s something, if I could do it again, I would try to focus more on ways to move the needle on that segment of the population.

“I got involved in women in tech stuff as soon as I got here and each time there’s that moment where I walk into the room of all the other women and now, when that happens, usually I know at least one person there so it normalizes it pretty quickly if another woman shows she is being accepting of my presence there. Initially in the first couple of years it was really hard to go to those spaces and to hope I would connect with a friendly person who would recognize that I’m just a different kind of woman and be my friend, or just be friendly to me.”

Yeah. That segues into something I’m curious about. Your particular experience being genderqueer in tech—like I read the blog post about the Pinterest bathroom incident and your response to that. What is your personal experience been working in this industry as someone considered different in that way?

I’m pretty fortunate. At Mozilla I got to know several of the leaders in the project through the work I did at Seneca College because a lot of them happened to live in Toronto, some were even from Ottawa and we were all relatively close in age which provided the comfort of shared cultural history that Canadians of a certain age will have. They were all very geeky, friendly straight people, so I came into Mozilla with a safety net of sorts.

As I worked in the Bay Area office,  I shared more information about who I was and what I valued which was usually well received. There was a lot of crossover with where I was coming from in terms of queer/feminist/anti-capitalist beliefs and the values of Open Source. I had a manager who was really great. He was very clear about calling me she, as I had asked, and he would do what I call “pronoun showdowns” on my behalf which is when my manager is calling me ‘she’ to someone who’s calling me ‘he’ and they just go back and forth like that until the other person’s on board. I love watching other people do that instead of having to do it myself.

I got involved in women in tech stuff as soon as I got here and each time there’s that moment where I walk into the room of all the other women and now, when that happens, usually I know at least one person there so it normalizes it pretty quickly if another woman shows she is being accepting of my presence there. Initially in the first couple of years it was really hard to go to those spaces and to hope I would connect with a friendly person who would recognize that I’m just a different kind of woman and be my friend, or just be friendly to me. As I got more confident in those circles, I could move on to talking about what we were there for, whether it was learning Python or Java Script or trying to teach other people. I use a method of proximity and persistent attendance to build up relationships with people.  I suppose we all do that, I’m just doing it with the additional effort of being seen for more than my initial appearance. Once at a women in CS conference, sitting in a session, this woman turned to me and asked, “Why are you here?” I think she honestly thought she was kindly asking a man why he was at women’s conference. Stuff like that still happens.

“I use a method of proximity and persistent attendance to build up relationships with people.  I suppose we all do that, I’m just doing it with the additional effort of being seen for more than my initial appearance. Once at a women in CS conference, sitting in a session, this woman turned to me and asked, “Why are you here?” I think she honestly thought she was kindly asking a man why he was at women’s conference. Stuff like that still happens.”

I wrote that email to the women@ list at a couple of months into being at Pinterest and we have now hired more women so there are going to be women in my office who don’t know about that email, who don’t know me, and that always makes me nervous because that means over time the risk of someone being scared continues to be a possibility—actually, it might have happened the other day. I came to the office from the gym because we have a single stall, gender-neutral shower, which is really great. It’s a solo shower, so I don’t have to worry about using our gendered showers because I wouldn’t actually feel comfortable being in the woman’s shower as it’s a shared space with a bunch of stalls and then a common change room.  While I use women’s change rooms as needed in public gyms and pools, that’s not comfortable for me at work, even though some of my coworkers use my gym and we’ve run into each other there. Anyway, there were no towels in my shower—I call it my shower—so I went to the woman’s shower room and stuck my head in to see if there were towels and there were two people in there, where one of them was—I don’t know how naked she was, but she had a towel on at least some part of her. The other was somebody I knew so I asked her, “Do you have any towels because there’s none—” I said, “There’s none in the other one.” Afterwards I realized that was going to sound to the other woman like a man stuck his head into the room and asked for a towel. That bugged me for a little while, because I get frustrated with not being perceived as how I am inside but I have to let it go. I can’t take it back. Little moments like that can throw off my day sometimes.

There’s this whole thing here about, “Be your authentic self.” The longer I’m here, meaning in the tech industry, and the longer I’m at Pinterest, and the more I get to know people and feel confident in the value I provide in the job that I do, the more I get to be my authentic self. — Honestly, even at Mozilla, where I felt like I was a fairly visible and outspoken contributor, and a leader on some initiatives, I was maybe 10% of my “authentic self.” There’s a part of me that’s like, “You can’t handle an authentic me in this workplace, you really don’t want it. It would be distracting at best. It would be horrifying, maybe, at worst because I am radically opposed to a lot of the norms you take for granted and if I was speaking about that all the time I’d be alienating you instead of you alienating me all the time.”  I’d rather take the hit and be the outlier than make other people uncomfortable.  I’m being 10% of myself and that is enough to get people thinking I’m this eccentric person or this unique character, but it also does draws certain people in which can feel nice.  That helps me identify the folks I can create and dream a brighter future with.

Let’s go macro for a second. How do you feel about the state of tech in 2016? What excites you? What frustrates you? What would you like to see change?

One of the things that excites me, actually it’s something that Pinterest is doing. There are people here who are tasked with building up Pinterest’s being a good corporate citizen. It feels very genuine. If we can’t immediately destroy capitalism, at least people can work to make their organizations be good corporate citizens and yet a lot of companies aren’t even doing this. Pinterest does a lot of outreach and ground work in several communities in SOMA. We provide volunteers for meal service at a nearby soup kitchen. There are bi-weekly meals-on-wheels deliveries to seniors living in SROs in the Tenderloin as part of our new hire onboarding.  I’m part of a group of engineers who started a computer club at Bessie Carmichael, a middle school down the street where 95% of the kids are on free lunch programs and we’re showing up and trying to build relationships & mentoring as well as just showing the kids that there are non-family adults who care about them. Things like that give me hope that there’s some model for accountability among tech businesses in San Francisco.  To the extent that these types of programs help on the daily, we’re engaged and there’s never a question that it’s the right thing to do.

“Honestly, even at Mozilla, where I felt like I was a fairly visible and outspoken contributor, and a leader on some initiatives, I was maybe 10% of my “authentic self.” There’s a part of me that’s like, “You can’t handle an authentic me in this workplace, you really don’t want it. It would be distracting at best. It would be horrifying, maybe, at worst because I am radically opposed to a lot of the norms you take for granted and if I was speaking about that all the time I’d be alienating you instead of you alienating me all the time.”  I’d rather take the hit and be the outlier than make other people uncomfortable.”

I’m always going to want it to be more radical than it is. But here it’s being done in a way that’s very core to the company’s values and considering the size of the company and that they aren’t public yet, it gives me hope that this is going to be ingrained aspect of this company’s culture.

So then there’s the other side which is that a lot of technology in Silicon Valley is being invented for the convenience of the 10% who are making good money. That’s got to stop. When are people going to try to solve real problems? I’m really disappointed that all these people who have all these fancy degrees that they hold over the rest of our heads aren’t doing anything that’s more beneficial to more people. Also people keep saying, “Oh the bubble’s going to burst, the bubble’s going to burst.” I do want there to come a time where tech jobs aren’t so inflated in value. I would be happy to be earning $60,000 a year in a town where that was enough to be comfortable and housing costs were secure so that more people could also have $60,000 incomes and cities weren’t being overrun & overpriced because they’re the nexus of high-risk, high-yield startups.

I was talking with someone last night in regards to the homelessness crisis in SF.  We’ve been going out in the mornings to try (unsuccessfully) to stop the tent sweeps. Where are those people supposed to go? Why isn’t anyone taking Uber’s model and making land grabs of unattended and abandoned lots in San Francisco? Build tiny houses on them and just say, “Oh yeah. It’s like Uber for homeless people.” It’s housing. Real, cheap houses. And if someone who owns this abandoned land wants to actually do something with it, fine we’ll move. But until that point, it’s housing, and it’s safe, and it’s clean, and I don’t know, something really disruptive. It’s not specifically a tech thing. Actually, here’s a good one for tech. Why hasn’t anybody figured out yet how to make a containment system that police can use to stop people from hurting themselves or others without killing them? That’s a great technology problem. Bring on the hackathon for that.

Are there social good hackathons yet?

Yeah. There actually is one called Hack For Social Good. The thing about hackathons is that—and I have been in and organized them even— you don’t get a lot done in a weekend that actually can persist beyond that weekend demo. Also, the organizations you’re trying to create for sometimes don’t know how to scope what they want or what they need into a small enough project for a weekend of strangers skill-sharing. It’s great for getting ideas, and I think people were using them originally as a way to kick off their next start-up or application and then they trickled down into the underrepresented communities as this way for people to network and maybe learn skills.  Maven has done some great hackathons for LGBTQ youth and nonprofits who work with them where several folks have gotten a leg up into securing work in tech afterwards.  That’s a positive outcome, even if the hackathons themselves are mostly prototyping.

“A lot of technology in Silicon Valley is being invented for the convenience of the 10% who are making good money. That’s got to stop. When are people going to try to solve real problems? I’m really disappointed that all these people who have all these fancy degrees that they hold over the rest of our heads aren’t doing anything that’s more beneficial to more people.”

How do you think that your background—where you come from, the life experiences that you’ve had, who you are—impact the way that you approach your work? I feel like your whole interview is an answer to this question but I just want to see what you say. [laughter]

I bring sort of a socialist-communist perspective to things so that right there kind of changes a little bit of power dynamics that might exist that just don’t exist for me or that I don’t care to perpetuate. The feedback I get is that makes me really fun to work with and maybe that helps shape the culture in positive ways since by default I’m always dreaming of how we can do things in ways that are inclusive of the most people.  I like pulling people in to help me on—for example, a week long tech camp for LGBTQ youth. I’ll just tell the whole company what I’m doing and why it matters. Then I’ll get these people out of nowhere who will say they want to help. When they help, it’s transformative for them.  

What I really want, and what’s really at the bottom of anything I do, is I really want to transfer power and resources to places where those are limited and yet to never be the bottleneck of this transfer happening. I do stuff in a scrappy grassroots ways, so I’m teaching people to fish as I go.  I hope I’ll get better and better at that. Anything I do, like the Ascend Project for example everything about Ascend is in a public git repo so anybody could take our materials & notes and go make a similar project happen.

I really admire the programs and organizations that were started in the 60s & 70s that still exist today, and I spend a lot of time thinking about, “How do we do that now? Do we do that now? Is it happening and I’m not noticing it? Are we capable of creating lasting models for social justice? Do we need institutions?” Silicon Valley is trying to convince us everything should be “move fast and break things” but when you’re dealing with people who are marginalized surprise and breaking things can be very destabilizing.

“It’s really important to recognize that people might come into this at any point in their lives. We should be always be empowered to not know what we want to do in our 20s and still get to learn new jobs have dignity, autonomy, and opportunities for mastery of skills. Anyone at any age should be able to do what I do.”

What do you see yourself doing in five or ten years?

Five years from now I want to have my own business and be teaching in some capacity. I want to do the Ascend project but as a business—where I’m able to fund running a training center for folks to be learning tech skills on the job while we deliver products perhaps in partnership with federal government. Trainees can become worker/owners or go start their own thing—like take a couple of clients and go start their own thing because not everybody’s able to or wants to work for someone. Some people really need to be able to work from home or to have more flexibility and so creating opportunities for that is also a priority to me.

My last question for you—this one’s complicated for you. Because normally my last question for folks is like, “What advice would you give to folks who kind of come from similar backgrounds or life experiences or who are hoping to get into tech?” But it feels so much more complicated with you. So I’m like, do we restructure that question? Like, what would you want that question to be? It’s kind of like, “What lessons have you learned that you would like to share with the young ones just starting out?” But… I don’t know.

Well, first of all, I don’t know that it should just be for the young folks because I think it’s really important to recognize that people might come into this at any point in their lives. We should be always be empowered to not know what we want to do in our 20s and still get to learn new jobs have dignity, autonomy, and opportunities for mastery of skills. Anyone at any age should be able to do what I do.

When I did the Ascend project I was asking people to tell me about a problem they had solved. Because I think a lot of people confuse technology with liking computers. But that’s just a side note. Tech work is about solving problems. If you could tolerate getting stuck on something, bang your head against it, thinking you’re a total idiot and you’re never going to figure it out, and then managing to figure it out and get that euphoria of, “Oh my god. I did this thing. I didn’t think I could do a day, a week, a month ago.” And you get a little high from that and you’re willing to do it again, then you can do okay in technology. You could do well in a lot of different jobs. Technology is not this natural talent, a lot of the work we’re doing is not in any way rocket science. Which may or may not even be the hardest thing to do. I don’t know why that’s always the comparison. But rocket science is pretty exact. A lot of this stuff has room in it for you to bring your transferable skills from all sorts of other areas. I want to work with more people who have way different backgrounds, not just people whose lives have gone according to a plan.

I’ve had some people ask a similar sort of question at conferences, like the LGBTQ lunch that happens at Grace Hopper “What’s going to happen when school ends and I’m this genderqueer person trying to get a job?” and, “Is it going to be okay for me?” It probably will, because even though this place is full of white people with money and other privileged folks they’re all pretty nice. It’s a benign, institutionalized system of racism, sexism, heteronormativity. Whatever exists here, it’s super low-key so there’s microaggressions, guaranteed there’s microaggressions. So, you’ll survive and then it’s on people to figure out what they can tolerate and where they’re going to feel comfortable and successful.

That’s my advice, “You’ll survive at the very minimum!” Someone’s going to find comfort in that. You know what sucks is I can’t say you will thrive. I don’t think I’ll ever be able to say that to somebody who comes from any kind of underrepresented population, that they will thrive in this environment. I don’t see even the people who fit the mold thriving here. I think the current Silicon Valley model has isolated and cut off its workers from humanity and so those of us who come in knowing a little more about what’s happening outside this bubble just feel the pain more acutely. However we also have outside communities to retreat to in healing, I’m thankful for the contrast and I hope that others coming in will have that already or create it as needed.

“That’s my advice, ‘You’ll survive at the very minimum!’ Someone’s going to find comfort in that. You know what sucks is I can’t say you will thrive. I don’t think I’ll ever be able to say that to somebody who comes from any kind of underrepresented population, that they will thrive in this environment. I don’t see even the people who fit the mold thriving here. I think the current Silicon Valley model has isolated and cut off its workers from humanity and so those of us who come in knowing a little more about what’s happening outside this bubble just feel the pain more acutely.”

I was born and raised in Boston. My parents are immigrants from South America, and I am the first generation American in my family. I grew up in acity called Somerville, a really nice area outside of Boston that’s been getting more attention lately. Mostly, it’s experiencing gentrification, partially led by Harvard, but ia nice diverse city made up of immigrant and working class families.

When my parents left Brasil for the U.S., they left behind interesting lives and successful careers there. A lot of people assume that every immigrant who came to the US was looking for a better life or to chase the “American Dream,” but my parents didn’t have much of a choice. My older brother needed open-heart surgery and the only hospital successfully operating on children was in Boston. So my parents came to the US so he could get the life-saving surgery and care that he needed.

“When my parents left Brasil for the U.S., they left behind interesting lives and successful careers there. A lot of people assume that every immigrant who came to the US was looking for a better life or to chase the “American Dream,” but my parents didn’t have much of a choice. My older brother needed open-heart surgery and the only hospital successfully operating on children was in Boston.”

Not knowing English or knowing anyone here, they realized pretty quickly that it was really hard work. With few options, they started their own house cleaning business. They made flyers that read, “We put your house to shining.” I was too young to really understand but when I found a copy of the flyer when I was about 13 or 14, I thought it was amazing. I showed my mom and we laughed for a moment, but we then talked about how hard it was for her to be a domestic worker.

After my parents divorced and my mother switched careers, I saw her blossom into this really awesome woman. She started her experiences and background to make positive changes around her. She became an advocate for immigrant women, survivors of abuse, domestic workers and became a bit of an organizer.  As a kid, I didn’t fully appreciate what she did. I just assumed, “Oh, this is my mom. This is what all kids do. They go to these rallies, right?”

In your pre-interview that by the time you were 18, you already dealt with depression and experienced homelessness, you survived domestic violence, and you’ve given birth to a child.

A lot happened in my young life and I think when young people share their tough experiences, society’s first instinct is to blame their parents. My parents loved me, cared for me, and worked hard to do a lot for me. The issues I faced were complex and layered and the reality is that they were struggling too.

Sometime in my journey through middle school, I became depressed. I wasn’t sleeping, I was anxious, and I was having a hard time finding myself. My doctor was hesitant to label it “depression” and convinced my mom to take me out of my current environment to see if a change of scenery for an extended period of time would help me. She did. I spent 2 ½ months in Brasil with her and my brother learning more about my culture, visiting family, riding horses, and being away from what felt like a negative and toxic environment. But the trip had to end and I eventually had to come back home.

I think my parents were convinced that my peers were driving me into a downward spiral so they decided at the last minute to enroll me into a private catholic school in the next town over. Horrified, I spent days crying in my room. The new school was supposed to be a new chance for me to be around people who were smart and driven. The problem was that dozens of other parents felt that way too and sent their kids to this school thinking it would resolve all of their core issues. It ended up feeling like a space, a breeding ground, for young people with complex issues who were turning to drugs for relief.

“Since it was a Catholic school, we definitely did not receive information about making healthy choices around relationships, dating and sex. We weren’t provided with information on how to keep ourselves safe or recognize signs of abuse. We, the girls, were just expected to keep our legs closed.”

And since it was a Catholic school, we definitely did not receive information about making healthy choices around relationships, dating and sex. We weren’t provided with information on how to keep ourselves safe or recognize signs of abuse. We, the girls, were just expected to keep our legs closed. And the message at home wasn’t much different. I was the only girl among my siblings and often felt the burden of supporting my mother to help provide for the family. I did a lot of cleaning and cooking and my mom reminded me that as a kid, she was already the head of the house, hand-washing everyone’s laundry, cooking dinner every day and responsible as the head caregiver for her own 4 siblings. Her expectation for me was not to be an adult, but I was expected to be responsible.

“Having a lot of responsibility and never really getting the help I needed to cope with my issues made me a vulnerable target.”

By the age of 14, I was in school full-time, involved in a ton of extracurricular activities, babysitting and working as a hostess in a local restaurant so that I could help pay bills. Every month, I would help my mom sort through the bills and make phone calls to service providers to dispute charges or request help. My mom knew how to do this, but she explained to me that she felt her english was so bad that people would never take her as serious as they would take me. That even though she was a woman in her 40s, her broken english meant a child with no accent would have more respect in the US. And she didn’t get this idea from nowhere, it came from years of people telling her that they couldn’t understand her or that she should leave the country if she can’t learn english properly.

Having a lot of responsibility and never really getting the help I needed to cope with my issues made me a vulnerable target. During a very troubling time in my life, I met  someone a little older than me who maneuvered his way into my life by offering what a young vulnerable girl needed at the time: support. And this isn’t an uncommon tactic. People can sometimes sense when someone is going through something or feeling very vulnerable, but there are certain kinds of people that feel that and use it to prey on them.

“During my junior year of high school, I found out that I was pregnant.”

During my junior year of high school, I found out that I was pregnant. I thought, “Oh my God! This can’t be happening to me. I go to a Catholic school! My parents will hate me.”

To of add a layer to that, I knew that my mother was also a young mom and then my grandmother was a young mom, that my aunt was a young mom, and it continues across several generations. And since they are Latinas, I like to talk about the reality of teen pregnancy in our culture. In our communities, young motherhood isn’t framed as a negative outcome. At the same time, young motherhood isn’t the expectation. But in a culture where women are denied access to quality education and/or prevented from pursuing careers, the next step in life for young women is marriage and/or motherhood. And that was the story for a lot of the women in my family. There was no reason to wait until 30. If you didn’t intend on going to college or establishing a career, what are you supposed to do for over 10 years between your high school graduation and the “ideal” age of motherhood. But what happened, at least this is how I see it, my parents assumed that because I was born in the US, that I would adopt American cultural norms and beliefs.

But I got pregnant at 17 and the first adult I told was my school nurse. In theory, you would think the school nurse would understand, what is essentially, your health condition and provide you with unbiased advice. You assume that as a medical professional, they will help you. Being in a Catholic school made my pregnancy a little more complex. What I heard was, “You already made a mistake so you can’t make another one.” Of course, this was the discussion around my reproductive choice and instead of providing me with all of my options and going through what the best choice was for me might be, I didn’t have a choice. Despite that, I walked away thinking about the reality that I could still get an abortion and no one would know. I could just do it, tell no one, and start all over. But I think my nurse knew that, so she told all of my teachers about my pregnancy. So here I am: pregnant, junior year in a Catholic school and I had nuns and teachers pulling me aside to tell me what decision I should make and shouldn’t make. “Oh, one sin can be forgiven but not two.”  

“But I got pregnant at 17 and the first adult I told was my school nurse. In theory, you would think the school nurse would understand, what is essentially, your health condition and provide you with unbiased advice. You assume that as a medical professional, they will help you. Being in a Catholic school made my pregnancy a little more complex. What I heard was, ‘You already made a mistake so you can’t make another one.'”

I was young and really relied on the acceptance of the people around me. And I really believed that if everybody knew that I was pregnant, then noticed my belly wasn’t growing, that they’d know what I did. I thought they would judge me and I thought I would end up regretting the decision. I was stuck in a position where I couldn’t make the best choice for myself. And maybe the choice would have still been the same in the end, but at that time my judgment was so clouded. So, I decided to continue with my pregnancy.

I told my mom first and she couldn’t believe that her daughter was pregnant. And I don’t blame her. There’s an assumption and a false stereotype about what kind of girls get pregnant. And I didn’t “fit into” that stereotype as a responsible daughter, honor roll student, and class representative. My parents were upset and I can understand why. They worked really hard in a new country and fought so hard to shed themselves from the stereotypes that Latinos face in the United States. Then they discover their teenage daughter is pregnant. It felt like the ultimate stereotype and they didn’t support me. They kicked me out that day and I had to pack my things and move in with my boyfriend.

Oh my gosh.

That period was really hard for me, because I was leaving a home where I felt safe and in with someone who I barely knew. I was isolated from the only support system I ever had.

“My parents were upset and I can understand why. They worked really hard in a new country and fought so hard to shed themselves from the stereotypes that Latinos face in the United States. Then they discover their teenage daughter is pregnant. It felt like the ultimate stereotype and they didn’t support me. They kicked me out that day.”

To make things more complicated, he was a marine getting ready to leave for training. Before my first trimester ended, he was already gone and for the next 6 months, I was completely alone. And since I was no longer living with my parents, I finished my junior year of high school and enrolled as a senior in a new public high school.

In September of 2005, I started my last year of high school as the new pregnant girl. To top off the experience, my new guidance counselor learned of my pregnancy and decided to remove me from my honors classes and put me in slower-paced classes. When I asked her to put me back into honors, she told me that I probably wouldn’t even graduate and that I should just try to get by in the lower classes – as if she was doing me a favor. But my pregnancy wasn’t impacting my ability to function in class, and I wanted to learn and I wanted to feel challenged. I wanted to continue on the path that I was on, and I couldn’t do that if people were making decisions for me without involving me. Luckily someone else in the school knew about the situation and really wanted to be an advocate for me, and so she stood up for me and said, “Put her back in honors. If it gets to the point where it’s not going well then that’s a whole different story, but put her back in honors.” And they did.

The assumption is that our peers are the ones who will pick on teen moms or give us the hardest time, but they were actually the most supportive to me. My classmates were amazing. They brought me snacks, they carried my books, and they let me cut the lunch line. They asked me questions about what my experience was like, they offered to babysit, and they spent time with me so I wouldn’t feel so alone. In school, it was teachers who were judgmental and mean.

“Older women are celebrated, supported, and the people around them will help in any way they can. That doesn’t happen for teenage girls. When we are in pain or afraid, we don’t get help. We’re told our pregnancies are punishments and this is the consequence.”

These small gestures helped so much. I was too proud to ask for any assistance, because I didn’t want to be the stereotype of what a teen mom was. I wanted to prove people wrong because I often heard, “You became a teen mom because you wanted free stuff, you wanted handouts.” That fear of judgment actually put me in worse situations because– when I should have asked for help and when I should have gone to people to tell them what was going on, I didn’t want to, because I was afraid they were going to say, “I told you so.” or “You’re just like all teen moms.” People really don’t know what it’s like for a teenage girl to be pregnant, unless you were one yourself. Older women are celebrated, supported, and the people around them will help in any way they can. That doesn’t happen for teenage girls. When we are in pain or afraid, we don’t get help. We’re told our pregnancies are punishments and this is the consequence.

My daughter’s father returned four days before I went into labor. During my daughter’s delivery, there was a moment when I started panicking. Her birth was recorded so I can still watch the moment when I went from grunting to crying to staring at the ceiling. See, throughout my entire pregnancy people said things like, “This child’s going to ruin your life. You’re life is over. You’re not going to be able to do any of the things you ever wanted to do. This is the worst thing that could happen to you.” So as I was giving birth to her, I started panicking, because I realized I was giving life to the person who would end mine. And how do I love someone who is meant to ruin my life?

Because of that experience and internalized belief, I had a very negative journey through the first few years of motherhood. I was diagnosed with depression and prescribed anti-depressants. To make matters worse, I was in a horrible relationship and was constantly told that teen moms like me are never taken serious and that no one wanted to love a woman with stretch marks and a baby. There was no one cheering me on, no one who believed in me, and I felt entirely alone.

At the same time, I was constantly facing barriers in school. The school was only required to offer me tutoring in 4 of my 7 classes during maternity leave. It was the minimum required to help me simply pass the school year. But I didn’t want to just pass, I wanted to do well in every class and graduate with a good GPA, like I would have before my pregnancy. So my psychology teacher volunteered to come to my house every week and tutored me in all 7 courses. She brought my exams and quizzes and held my daughter so I could take them. She held my textbooks while I breastfed and was always proud of my progress. Returning to school was tough, the other teachers weren’t as fond of me or my “situation.” They would refuse to meet with my after school for help and embarrass me in class. One teacher told me in math class that there was no way I could catch up, so I proved her wrong by acing the class.

“I even had to fight for things like the right to pump breast milk twice a day. The school didn’t want to let me because they thought I was trying to find excuse to get out of class. Right. Because what every 18-year-old girl wants is to like skip her lunch break so she can be sit in the nurse’s office pumping milk and nibbling on crackers.”

But I even had to fight for things like the right to pump breast milk twice a day. The school didn’t want to let me because they thought I was trying to find excuse to get out of class. Right. Because what every 18-year-old girl wants is to like skip her lunch break so she can be sit in the nurse’s office pumping milk and nibbling on crackers. That is so much fun.

I dealt with a lot of people who constantly tried to limit my choices and my future. Then closer to the end of that semester, I went back to my guidance counselor’s office to ask if she could help me look over college applications. Most of my friends had already applied and had already found out where they were going, and I was late but wanted to do make it happen. Her response without even making eye contact with me was, “Well, let’s see if you even graduate high school first.”

God.

I walked away from that and thought, “Oh, she’s probably right. I probably won’t be able to do this, and I should probably take things one step at a time.” So I didn’t apply for college. Now, the good news is I did graduate high school on time and I did walk the stage with my class. I did get to stay in my honors classes throughout the whole year, and I did well in all of them, despite being a teen mom. I think, actually, I did better in school because I was a teen mom and because I had something else motivating me to do even better.  But people outside of me and my daughter’s life didn’t see that.  

So, you graduated, you didn’t go straight to college—what were those next few years like for you?

When I was in high school I really, really wanted to go to med school. I wanted to become a psychiatrist. Having been a young person who coped with depression, I knew what people like me needed and I understood the differences in cultural understanding of depression. For example—parts of my family are really religious and there have been times people said things like, “You’re not depressed, you’re just dealing with something. Pray to God. You’ll be fine.”

“No one in my family filled out a college application. I had no idea of what that process was like, I had no idea of what you were supposed to do, when you were supposed to do it, what was normal, what wasn’t.”

I knew at a young age that this was not right.  I just couldn’t articulate or figure it out, but I wanted to become a psychiatrist so that I could serve and help young people, like me. Now, the idea of going to med school was really overwhelming because again, my parents were immigrants and they weren’t citizens, and they weren’t in the best financial places, and no one in my family had ever gone to college. So I knew that first, they wouldn’t able to co-sign loans for me and I felt overwhelmed at the thought of the expense. And even if I chose another career, I didn’t know how to navigate the process.

No one in my family filled out a college application. I had no idea of what that process was like, I had no idea of what you were supposed to do, when you were supposed to do it, what was normal, what wasn’t. The idea of a young mom with no support becoming a psychiatrist felt way too overwhelming. It felt unattainable. So what I did was, after I graduated, that summer I looked at local state and community colleges that would accept late applications.I might not be able to become a psychiatrist right away but I can start the process  by becoming a nurse. It seemed a little more attainable and promised a guaranteed job.  So I applied for college, started in the fall, finished off my prerequisites, and prepared for a career in nursing.

“I entered college with a new identity. I didn’t tell anyone that I was a mom, including my professors. I just so badly wanted to be treated the same as everyone else.

I entered college with a new identity. I didn’t tell anyone that I was a mom, including my professors. I just so badly wanted to be treated the same as everyone else.  The problem was that I was still facing unresolved issues and an internalized belief that I was not valuable. So I didn’t ever explain anything to my professors and by my second year of school, I dropped out. I didn’t have reliable childcare, I was still coping with depression, and I was working a full-time job and living on my own.  I decided that if I was going to accomplish anything, I needed to take care of myself. That I was going to focus on being a good mom and practice self-care.

Wow. How did you end up in tech?

That’s a great question. It’s quite a little bit of a journey from that point to getting into tech. I don’t have a traditional tech background, as I think a lot of people do out here. After I took this break from school I started focusing on myself. I started to deconstruct and redefine what it meant to be a young woman and single mother in today’s society. I started talking to other young moms—which was life-changing—because it really helps when you don’t feel as isolated.

I started realizing that thousands and thousands and thousands of young women across the country are dealing with the same exact thing. 100,000 teens give birth every year—more than 80% were unplanned—and so many of them drop out of school, or feel pressured to leave or didn’t receive the support that they need to stay. Yet, many some of them share that it’s not actually pregnancy and parenthood that makes their lives hard, as we often hear, but it’s actually the way people treat us. It’s the way that our educators treat us. It’s the way a lot gate-keepers treat us. It’s the ways in which people invalidate who we are as just women and humans in society. The minute we become young parents we’re labeled as irresponsible, and told we’re awful people, and that we should just be isolated and not exposed to the general public because we’d cause an “epidemic.”

So I began looking at ways to counter-message the false reality that young mothers are not productive members of our society by leveraging the power of new tech, like social media. My first time trying out this theory was with the Children’s Hospital in Boston, where I developed a comprehensive strategy for using new tech to eliminate the feeling of isolation among over 500 young parents in Boston. That opportunity led to a hire at the Brigham and Women’s Hospital where I expanded the program to make an impact on reducing health disparities and improving health outcomes in the lives of young mothers of color in Boston. Then I was hired by  the Massachusetts Alliance on Teen Pregnancy where I worked on a $5M dollar grant from the CDC to reduce the teen pregnancy rate in two cities by 10% in five years. In a few months, I helped develop a social marketing campaign for two cities. We reached our 5-year targets before year 3.  

“Initially, I thought, ‘There is no way I want to work in tech. I can’t give into that culture or space because, well, it’s tech.”  I thought, ‘I can’t do that. I can’t be for racial justice and reproductive justice and work in tech. That doesn’t make sense.'”

While all of this was happening, I also started a grassroots campaign called #NoTeenShame to change a terrifying message that organizations like the Candies’ Foundation and multi-millionaire CEOs like Neil Cole share with teenage girls about sexuality and choice and I partnered with six other young moms from different parts of the country for its launch and within a week, it went viral and we were being featured in everything from Ms. Magazine to Business Insider.  It was exciting for people to see seven young moms of color across the country were starting a campaign against this multimillionaire CEO. It went viral to the point where he caught wind of it and wrote a response on The Huffington Post about it. It was not the response we were hoping, but it was a win for us none the less. Once that happened, we started getting contacted by just about every organization in the United States that was working with young people to get our insight on how to do the work better and more effectively. We got really busy really fast and people just started reaching up to us and asking, “Well, how can we replicate the models that you guys have used in your respective organizations to help young people? What should we be doing differently?” The series of all those events led to me developing strategic frameworks for using new technology for social impact and finally presenting at a tech conference here in San Francisco last year.

For a long time I envisioned tech as the enemy—I’m a reproductive justice activist. I’m a racial justice activist.

When I wased in San Francisco, I met someone on the executive team at a startup called Honor (where I work now) who was interested in the work that I did,how I accomplished it and how creative I was in using very little resources to accomplish a massive goal. And so we started talking, and I met other people on the executive team. Initially, I thought, “There is no way I want to work in tech. I can’t give into that culture or space because, well, it’s tech”  And so coming into this space, I thought, “I can’t do that. I can’t be for racial justice and reproductive justice and work in tech. That doesn’t make sense.” I had this assumption that social justice didn’t fit into tech, but I think that’s because I based my opinions on the negative stories I heard on the east coast. But once I met the people that were leading the company, I realized that so much of what I assumed about the people in Silicon Valley were wrong. But also that someone like me can still be in tech and be a valuable asset to the work. And as weird as this sounds, I do think I found that special startup that actually developed a really good frame from the very beginning of how they do work. So, I waited a while and I thought about it, went back to Boston, and decided to pursue the opportunity. I thought to myself, “Oh my god. I was 27 years old. I have a daughter. I’m a single mom, and the only family that I have in the US are just four people who live in Boston. And now I’m accepting the  opportunity to move to San Francisco to work in tech.” And that was hard to wrap my head around.

It was actually my mom who said, “Natasha, you can do this. You’ve overcome way harder things in your life.” When she was 27, she was on her way  to the US for a completely different life. And so she said, “I did it, and I’m not saying that we’re the same. But you can move across the country to pursue this. You can do this.” She also reminded me that I had to think about my daughter who’s really interested in science and has been going to all these science clubs. I now have an opportunity to actually be in this field, to actually be in tech, and provide her with an inside view of what this world is really like. She can watch me go through this process and this journey, and she’s going to see how hard it is. She’s going to see the good and the bad, but she’s going to see it. And she’s going to appreciate it. So, it was a combination of those things that made me decide to say yes to the new field and the big move.

So, what was Silicon Valley like for you when you first got here?

There’s been positives and negatives. One of the things that I actually had to overcome when I came here is how fast everything moves. It’s really fast-paced. Everybody told me it was like this, but it was ten times faster than what I’d prepared myself for. And initially, it was really hard, but I also had a really supportive group of people here where they were willing to help me adjust.

“I love that when I’m having lunch and sitting at a table with people who are amazing engineers, or accomplished healthcare professionals, and talented organizers. And we all sit at a lunch table enjoying each other’s company and discussing the very different experiences we’ve had—and how those diverse experiences shaped such an incredible company.”

The other difficult transition is coming from a space where I talked about racial and reproductive justice 24/7 without filtering myself. Prior to this role, I went to networking events where we introduced ourselves by identifying which pronouns we prefer, the issues we’re working on and how we identify. It’s much different here where I’m often asked to introduce myself by position, educational background and accomplishments. And even when I went to events centered on inclusion, I didn’t feel included. How are so many companies  hosting an event on improving inclusion in the tech sector, hosting in spaces that are difficult to access, and not offering things like child-care?

What has been most exciting of activating for you in your work here?

What’s been most exciting is the people that I get to work with. I love that when I’m having lunch and sitting at a table with people who are amazing engineers, or accomplished healthcare professionals, and talented organizers. And we all sit at a lunch table enjoying each other’s company and discussing the very different experiences we’ve had—and how those diverse experiences shaped such an incredible company.

Despite growing up 5 minutes from Harvard and 10 minutes from MIT, I felt so disconnected from people in tech. They seemed so unreachable and different. And I didn’t always see them as the people I wanted to aspire to become. The Harvard grads were the ones moving into our community, pushing families out of homes, so 5 or 6 students could move in, bumping up rent from $1000 to $3000, a profitable idea for landlords. So I witnessed how the growth and expansion of schools like Harvard led to the immersion of grad students into my community, which meant the immigrant and working class families had to leave.

“Despite growing up 5 minutes from Harvard and 10 minutes from MIT, I felt so disconnected from people in tech. They seemed so unreachable and different. And I didn’t always see them as the people I wanted to aspire to become.”

That played a role in how I perceived tech, even though I was using platforms like Facebook. It didn’t occur to me that someone not too distant from me created this. To the teenage me, it was just something that was created by someone somewhere. It took years before I learned that it was created 5 minutes from my house.

It was cool, but it frustrated me because I felt like there were so many issues impacting young people in Somerville and Cambridge and no one seemed to care. And it was frustrating to see people come from all over the world to study here, learn from the community, then leave forever. Now that I’m on the inside, I see how difficult it is to create tools that are genuinely helpful to people—especially if it’s for people of low-income. And it’s frustrating.  

I’m curious to know how that experience, seeing that tech ecosystem in Boston affects the way that you feel about the state of tech here right now?

Boston’s tech scene is very different than it is on the west coast. It’s thriving, but in a very different way. So although I was involved there, it didn’t help much when dealing with imposter syndrome. I think we often frame and consider imposter syndrome as a one time occurrence that we overcome. But what I learned is that it’s a life-long issue that you’re constantly battling. See, when my Boston friends learned the news of my move to San Francisco to work for an Andreessen-Horowitz backed startup, they were amazed. To them, I was doing what so many wished they could do and I was supposed to feel like “I did it!” And I did, but there’s still the reality that you’re constantly needing to be ahead of everyone else and doing incredibly well. I love the field and where I work, but there’s internal self-created pressure to make sure I’m outdoing myself.

“When everyone around you has very similar background, you can sometimes still feel like an outsider. I didn’t have the typical college experience, I didn’t have those amazing internship opportunities, and I didn’t have parents who could introduce me to really cool people or get me jobs or even read over my essay to see if they were grammatically correct. Growing up, I had to do and figure out all of those things on my own.”

But when everyone around you has very similar background, you can sometimes still feel like an outsider. I didn’t have the typical college experience, I didn’t have those amazing internship opportunities, and I didn’t have parents who could introduce me to really cool people or get me jobs or even read over my essay to see if they were grammatically correct. Growing up, I had to do and figure out all of those things on my own. So part of the culture shock is being lost in the conversations centered around privilege.

The other thing too that I notice out here that never happened to me before is we meet people and they’re constantly extracting from you. “What are your thoughts on this?” and “What are your thoughts on that?” And I’m hesitant to share information because also as a woman of color and having done really great work over the past decade I’ve constantly experienced situations where people with power will take a little bit of information from me and then turn it into something that they get credit for. And so, there’s this constant erasure that happens to young woman of color, so I’m hesitant to engage based on this historical experience. Especially if they’re not being transparent with me.

“I’m hesitant to share information because also as a woman of color and having done really great work over the past decade I’ve constantly experienced situations where people with power will take a little bit of information from me and then turn it into something that they get credit for. And so, there’s this constant erasure that happens to young woman of color, so I’m hesitant to engage based on this historical experience.”

The other piece is that I have internalized stigma as a teen mom and it pops up from time to time. I tend to find myself avoiding conversations that might turn into a discussion about me being a single parent that turns into facing a series of invasive questions. Because it happens. Too often. And it’s not intentional, but their unconscious bias just starts surfacing, and they ask, “Well, how old’s your kid? How old are you? Oh my God, that mean’s you were in like…” You literally see them every time look up, do the math, and they’re like, “Oh my god, you were 17! What was that like? What did your parents say?” And it just turns into this whole dialogue that I don’t want to be a part of. Interested in my story? Go read about it or watch Gilmore Girls. I don’t want my struggles to be the center of discussion, especially in a society where we were made to believe that teen parenthood is a bad thing.

How has everything we’ve talked about, both your experiences in tech so far, and your upbringing, and all of your cumulative experiences, how does that effect what is priority to you here? What is priority in a job, what is priority in what you’re trying to get out of Silicon Valley?

So it’s actually really interesting, because I feel like a lot of people out here are really focused on long-term planning. There’s nothing wrong with that, it’s necessary, but I feel like my goals are very different than a lot of people in my position. And that has a lot to do with the reality of how much progress I’ve already made in the past decade. I’ve met and exceeding so many of my own expectations for this period of time and I wanted to spend time acknowledging that and perfecting and improving everything I do now. It doesn’t mean I’m not going to push myself to grow more. I’m focused on ensuring what I do on a daily basis is amazing and meaningful—I’m focused on leaving behind a legacy that my daughter would be proud to share with her grandchildren.

I think a lot about how my mother’s move to the US changed the entire future of our family. So I can’t help but wonder what amazing choices I can make that will continue to do that. If I have the power to shape an incredible future generation, I will do that. And I want to be present today, enjoying my life and my daughter’s life—not waiting for happiness in the form of monetary success.

I’m curious to know how much you’re balancing what you’re working on now and the activism that you’ve been involved with so long, and what it’s like being a part of both of those worlds, especially in the context of San Francisco.

After accepting a position in tech, I thought that I could still be an activist and a writer. But I realized that it was going to take a lot of my mental capacity and energy to adapt to startup culture and do my work really well. Although my personal work is always with me, I knew that I moved across the country for this amazing opportunity and I wanted to dedicate as much a possible to meeting my expectations. Prior to my move to San Francisco, I was presenting at different conferences and organizations across the countries and being asked to do a lot of consultant and advisory work. I had to start declining a lot of those opportunities. And I had to adjust to the realization that nobody in this sector knows me, which is different than Boston.

“Prior to my move to San Francisco, I was presenting at different conferences and organizations across the countries and being asked to do a lot of consultant and advisory work. I had to start declining a lot of those opportunities. And I had to adjust to the realization that nobody in this sector knows me, which is different than Boston.”

Outside of work, my only priority is being a really amazing mom. That can be challenging when you’re working in an environment where working moms aren’t the majority. The ways in which you use and prioritize your time is different and participating in after-hours anything is often a challenge, even though they’re usually necessary and important. Childcare is an obstacle when you’re a single mom in a state where you have no family and feel like you’re already spending too much time away from your kid.

How’s your daughter liking San Francisco?

She loves it but hates the hills. I hate it more than she does honestly but she likes it here a lot. Ha!

She’s really thoughtful and friendly so she made a new best friend within her first week in school. It’s been super easy for her in that way. And like I mentioned earlier, she’s now really interested in Science. Back in Boston, she participated in many different science clubs and programs. It helped expand what her understanding of science was and she became really excited about the opportunity for me to work in tech. And I’m glad she felt good about the choice because I hope she can face an obstacle one day and remember that, “My mom went through this too.” And we have deep conversations about girls in STEM and what it’s like to be a girl in a lot of the science programs. It was interesting to me that she wasn’t interested in the field because of the cool “perks” but because she sees this space as the space where she can do amazing things. Her mission is to promote eco-friendly lifestyles and find a cure for Alzheimer’s. After my grandmother passed from Alzheimer’s, she felt deeply connected and spent a year asking me countless questions. She knows we’ve created tech to do some amazing things and hopes she can do something amazing too. And I’m going to nurture her interest in science until she does exactly what she wants to do.

“I think a lot about tech’s impact on marginalized people, and not just how they use the service but how they actually can be included in the development of new tech.”

How do your friends and family from home feel about how far you’ve come and all you’ve accomplished?

They’re really happy for me. Actually, I had one friend who she really said, “Natasha I think you did everything you could here. You literally accomplished everything and there wasn’t a better next step than this.” My mom is really proud.

How you feel about the state of tech in 2016? What excites you, what frustrates you, what would you like to see change?

I think a lot about tech’s impact on marginalized people, and not just how they use the service but how they actually can be included in the development of new tech. This is where my previous experience overlaps with what tech is missing—the ability to always center the needs of the people they’re targeting. When we’re talking about young people, I’d love to see them getting the support and resources they need to turn their innovative ideas into reality.

“As a mother in tech, I also faced the reality that so many of the programs meant to nurture girls’ interest in STEM are not easily accessible. The programs are often replicating the very same systems that worked for people already in tech. I’ve found myself feeling like the burden falls on parents to fix the pipeline issue and get girls into STEM.”

As a mother in tech, I also faced the reality that so many of the programs meant to nurture girls’ interest in STEM are not easily accessible. The programs are often replicating the very same systems that worked for people already in tech. I’ve found myself feeling like the burden falls on parents to fix the pipeline issue and get girls into STEM.

One example is my daughter had science club on Saturday mornings, and it was at a college campus, which has its pros and its cons. The pro is that it’s great to send girls to a college to see what that environment is like. The con is that it’s often inaccessible for a lot of parents and families and it requires a lot of commuting. And then the classes are so short that parents, can’t just drop off their kids at the program and then go home or doing something else and then come back. They must sit there waiting. So parents are asked to spend a few hours every weekend getting their kids to this program, waiting for them, and then commuting back home. And that could be a barrier to some. The other barrier, of course, is a lot of these programs are really expensive, so if you’re creating programs that are supposed to improve diversity but they’re really expensive, only the people who make enough money to afford it it will be able to get their children into it. There’s usually a financial aid or scholarship application, but it puts the burden on parents who are now of low income to prove to the program that their children deserve a chance. Now you have moms and dads or grandparents, being asked to fill out applications that ask invasive questions about their finances.

“They’re asking parents who are already dealing with a lot to prove and to open up about these issues with people they don’t even know, so that their kid can have an opportunity that they deserve. What if parents don’t even speak English or what if they’re undocumented and don’t have tax documents proving they are of low income?”

They’re asking parents who are already dealing with a lot to prove and to open up about these issues with people they don’t even know, so that their kid can have an opportunity that they deserve. What if parents don’t even speak English or what if they’re undocumented and don’t have tax documents proving they are of low income?

This is probably related to gender diversity, but you wrote in your pre-interview that you think men should lean out.

Before I joined tech, the concept of “leaning in” surfaced onto my radar. Initially, it felt like this was being proposed as a new idea, something that’s rarely been done before. It frustrated me. I’ve spent most of my life leaning in for survival. And leaning in is simply what marginalized women across the nation have been doing for their basic human rights for decades.

“Before I joined tech, the concept of “leaning in” surfaced onto my radar. Initially, it felt like this was being proposed as a new idea, something that’s rarely been done before. It frustrated me. I’ve spent most of my life leaning in for survival. And leaning in is simply what marginalized women across the nation have been doing for their basic human rights for decades.”

And when I look at the core issue, it’s equity in the workforce. Women aren’t paid fairly, but women didn’t create the unfair ways in which women are compensated. And women of color make significantly less than white women, and face higher rates of discrimination at work. Women leaning in can help change the ways in which women are perceived and treated, but men leaning out create genuine opportunities for women to rise. Leaning out as a man can mean giving up your spot on an all male panel to offer a woman on your team the opportunity, or giving press ops to women, being vocal about the important roles women hold in the company, and of course, paying them a fair and equitable salary. Because the burden of making the workforce fair and equitable shouldn’t be ours to carry.

“Leaning out as a man can mean giving up your spot on an all male panel to offer a woman on your team the opportunity, or giving press ops to women, being vocal about the important roles women hold in the company, and of course, paying them a fair and equitable salary. Because the burden of making the workforce fair and equitable shouldn’t be ours to carry.”

What advice would you have for those of similar backgrounds hoping to get into tech?

We’re all facing different obstacles or adversities, and there are periods in our lives where we may feel like we can’t do what we want. And when we live in a negative environment, you’re not just internally facing challenges, but you’re getting that external negative validation. Whether you are a teen mom or a young person facing any of the many obstacles that make our lives unnecessarily harder than it needs to be, stay focused on your own dreams. Find a mentor or two who are smart and kind, and only trust them for advice and guidance.

And constantly work on yourself and making you the best version you can be. We like to believe that at some point in our lives we reach our full potential, but what if it’s a life long journey where we’re constantly learning and constantly changing and improving? Don’t feel like you have to be the final version of you at this very moment, just be willing to learn. Stay true to who you are and accept that you are a work in progress.

“Don’t feel like you have to be the final version of you at this very moment, just be willing to learn. Stay true to who you are and accept that you are a work in progress.”

I grew up in a multicultural working class community, consisting mostly of immigrant families, right outside of Boston, Massachusetts. It wasn’t the safest or nicest neighborhood, but for my parents it was a step up from the situation back home on the Cape Verde Islands.

“I love it when people tell me I can’t do something and then proving them wrong. I get a kick out of that.”


After the birth of my youngest brother, my mother made two key decisions that would significantly impact our lives and futures. First, she decided to move her family from a troubled neighborhood in Boston to a much safer community. And second; she sent us to a private Catholic school in said community. These events limited our exposure to drugs and gang violence, and got us access to quality education.

My high school was funded by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation to supports its innovative model where students would attend regular classes for four days. The fifth day was reserved for a full time job shared amongst five students. We learned valuable, real life skills and could put away the earnings towards our tuition. This is where I was exposed to technology for the first time. I worked with engineers and was quickly captivated by all its potential.

“One of my biggest insecurities is language. English is not my first language, and because of that, I don’t feel like I have the vocabulary to be as persuasive as I’d like to be. Immigrant parents combined with marginalized, low-quality education doesn’t really build a ton self-confidence.
”

Despite the proximity of universities like Harvard, MIT, and Tufts to my home, I never really thought about college until my cousin invited me to spend a weekend with her at Boston College. That experience was transformative for me because suddenly college felt like an obtainable goal. If my cousin could make it, so could I.

My college experience was, like it is for many people who look like me, very challenging. I had to balance lectures and exams with jobs, but that’s how I ended up working for Karmaloop. And at Karmaloop I got exposed to design, art, streetwear brands, marketing – brands like Supreme and Married to the Mob – all of which had strong foundations in graphic design. After I got my degree in neuroscience, I decided to do something for myself. I bought a one way ticket to San Francisco and left everything behind. In San Francisco I found design, technology, art, and myself.

For the first three years I worked as a user research lead for a startup that allowed me to travel all over the world. I got exposed to the long hours and high pressure of tech, but was able to tap deeply into my passion for design.

I worked in tech as interaction designer for a few years now. Those years gave me enough insights into the treatment of women. But one of my biggest issues with the whole diversity conversation is that is it’s often too much conversation. As a designer, I wanted to build and test something that could actually be shipped.

“I fondly remember Ben Horowitz telling me, ‘There’s offense, and there’s defense. And what you’re telling me right now is that you’re taking people of color, who are naturally creative. People of color invented hip-hop, jazz, blues, and rock ‘n’ roll, and you’re putting them in an arena where they’re positioned to win. I think it’s a great idea. Let’s go tell Kanye about it.'”

I quit my job in early 2015 and founded Front & Center. I wanted to expose creative young adults from underrepresented communities to non-engineering roles in tech. I researched and worked with design leaders from Facebook, Google, KPCB, Vice and many others to define a basic set of required skills for product designers that don’t pursue a traditional academic path. That research resulted in a design training program consisting of basic design, communication and presentation skills. Today, I mostly mentor through Front & Center, consult as a designer.



What has your experience been building Front & Center?

I’m very lucky because my partner has been an entrepreneur for years; he helped me out by coaching me on how to avoid typical first time founder mistakes. But even with his help, there is a lot of falling on my face. I saw a problem, but had no solution. So I started building what I thought was right, but while speaking with investors I figured out it’s very hard to find a model for something that usually fits within the non-profit mold. So I had to do a lot of catching up on how to run an actual business, so I wouldn’t look like a fool. And one of my biggest insecurities is language. English is not my first language, and because of that, I don’t feel like I have the vocabulary to be as persuasive as I’d like to be. Immigrant parents combined with marginalized, low-quality education doesn’t really build a ton self-confidence.


“You know when they say, ‘just fake it till you make it,’ right? Well–it’s super hard for me to fake anything because I have no reference points. Getting help from someone that’s gone through similar hurdles is practically impossible because there are very few people who look like me that do what I do. Finding people you can look up to and model your progress after is so important to individual development. Even today I struggle to find role models. There are very few successful black women who made it as designers.”

I’ve been able to expand my network with some amazing people. I fondly remember Ben Horowitz telling me, “There’s offense, and there’s defense. And what you’re telling me right now is that you’re taking people of color, who are naturally creative. People of color invented hip-hop, jazz, blues, and rock ‘n’ roll, and you’re putting them in an arena where they’re positioned to win. I think it’s a great idea. Let’s go tell Kanye about it.” Now these kinds of things happen in Silicon Valley, but all I could think of was “Oh my god, I get to meet Kanye West.” Moments like these don’t come often when you’re a founder. They definitely don’t come when you’re a founder from a marginalized community. But moments like these keep you going, wherever you’re from as a founder.

Tell me more about just the struggles you’ve overall had in your time of tech. What are the roadblocks you’ve had to overcome?

You know when they say, “just fake it till you make it”, right? Well – it’s super hard for me to fake anything because I have no reference points. Getting help from someone that’s gone through similar hurdles is practically impossible because there are very few people who look like me that do what I do. Finding people you can look up to and model your progress after is so important to individual development. Even today I struggle to find role models. There are very few successful black women who made it as designers. So you have to look beyond your appearance, One person that has inspired my way of thinking about the world is Elle Luna. She’s a person that lives her truth, and I’m thankful to have learned that it’s enough to be inspired. Having role models that look like you is great. But when there aren’t any out there, you need to learn to look up to individuals that don’t necessarily look like you.


I can’t stress enough how important role models are. And I want to be that role model for the community that I’m from. When I hear celebrities say, “I’m not a role model, I’m an artist, I can do whatever I want”, I say no: You’re one of the few that made it out. You can show others how to do that. Passing on information is so important to break the cycles of division and separation. I’m in a unique position to set the example for future generations.   


I’ve been thinking a lot about tech-debt in communities of color lately. Access to technology in communities like the one I’m from is incomparable to the access to technology that most people who become successful in Silicon Valley have. Most Black schools have pretty abysmal computer science labs. Students don’t have computers at home, let alone an internet connection. So next to figuring out what stock options mean, a lot of people who are trying to break into technology need to catch up on people who’ve been exposed to tech for much, much longer. I had the privilege to get my first personal computer when I was 14 years old. And I didn’t really know what code was until I was 19. But most of my peers in tech have had access to technology for all their lives, and role models that encouraged them to explore. For people who come from communities like mine, a career in tech is like a pipe dream. There is nobody around you who’s made it in tech, and no parents of family members who can tell you about the career opportunities. Sure, leadership skills come somewhat naturally, but communication can be a challenge when you haven’t been exposed to tech culture like so many of the people around me have.

“I’ve been thinking a lot about tech-debt in communities of color lately. Access to technology in communities like the one I’m from is incomparable to the access to technology that most people who become successful in Silicon Valley have. Most Black schools have pretty abysmal computer science labs. Students don’t have computers at home, let alone an internet connection. So next to figuring out what stock options mean, a lot of people who are trying to break into technology need to catch up on people who’ve been exposed to tech for much, much longer.”

How do you think your background in behavioral science helps you in your work? Both as a product designer and as an entrepreneur.

Having an academic background has mostly triggered a thirst to keep learning. I like watching things and studying their patterns, which is another side to this inclusion discussion that I find remarkable. When people stop learning and stop questioning the way the world works around them, things like bias, discrimination and racism come into play. I’ve been trying to fix that conversation by prototyping solutions that can actually be implemented, and found that in order to work in tech – an academic path is very beneficial but in most cases, not an absolute necessity. Especially in the field of design.

What would you say are your big motivators?

I love it when people tell me I can’t do something and then proving them wrong. I get a kick out of that. I decided to speak out more because I want kids to know how to deal with similar situations. I want them to say, “I want to be like Melanie when I grow up.” I didn’t have anyone I could be like growing up. So I collected all this advice; some of it I can use, some of it I can’t. Bits and pieces of people that have inspired me along the way, and I try to keep improving myself like that.

Okay, let’s just go macro real quick. How do you feel about the state of tech in 2016? What excites you, what frustrates you, and what would you like to see change?

I’m most excited about  companies that exist to do good and challenge the way we think about the world, so I’m really in love with Honor. I love what they’re doing, I love the problem that they’re solving. It’s really exciting because it’s a human problem and everyone benefits from it. The workforce, the families, even the way they run the company.


The things that frustrate me? There are still too many non-problems being solved. Things that are only accessible by a very controlled, homogenous audience. I’m worried about the accessibility of technology. Many processes continue to optimize and drive down prices, making things more affordable – but there very few processes that focus on making life more enjoyable.

What advice would you have for folks coming from similar backgrounds as yours who are hoping to get into tech?

You need that hustle. A strong will to succeed because you will hear “no” more often than people will tell you “yes.” Shit will get hard. But if it’d be easy, anybody would be doing it. We experience racism and other difficulties every single day. Use that sadness and anger to lift yourself up in the right direction. If people don’t believe you, build whatever you can and try to prove them wrong. With Front & Center I’ve tried to hack a system that I found didn’t make sense. So I decided to make a change. I measure my success by the opportunities I create for other people. I want people to join me in designing a more inclusive future.

“You need that hustle. A strong will to succeed because you will hear “no” more often than people will tell you ‘yes.’ Shit will get hard. But if it’d be easy, anybody would be doing it. We experience racism and other difficulties every single day. Use that sadness and anger to lift yourself up in the right direction. If people don’t believe you, build whatever you can and try to prove them wrong.”

I grew up in the Bay Area. I was born in Berkeley and lived here up until the end of high school. Growing up, I wasn’t sure if I wanted to study science or do something more artsy. I had an undiagnosed learning disability, and I struggled with some of my academic classes, but did better in theater, art, and music. Once I was diagnosed with a learning disability, and able to get accommodations, I started doing much better in my academic classes. My AP Physics teacher my senior year of high school encouraged me to pursue physics in college, and that was the first time a teacher had ever said to me: you have a talent, you should do this.

So my freshman year of college, I took an intro theater class and an intro physics class, and I said to myself, whichever one I do better at, that’s the universe telling me what I should major in. I got such a good grade in my physics that I didn’t need to take the final exam. And I got the worst grade of my college career in the theater class, which wasn’t that bad but… I thought, okay this is the universe telling me that I should study physics. I ended up majoring in physics and continued doing it all the way through my PhD.

I’m curious to know what it was like being a lady in astrophysics PhD academia.

There have been a lot of articles about being a woman in academic science in the press recently. I participated in a Twitter hashtag (#astroSH) that got press coverage. The hashtag was motivated by some of the high-profile cases of sexual harassment in academia.

It was challenging being in a male-dominated field. Physics is 85% male. There are many ways you are made to feel different. There are hard interactions with male colleagues. I tweeted about a bunch of different things that happened to me over the years that were hard. For instance a guy walking by my lab, and I was wearing dish gloves because I was washing some parts of my experiment, and he said, “That’s what women are good for, doing dishes in the kitchen.” And men repeatedly told me that I got to where I was because there was some quota that needed to be filled and they needed to have a certain number of women in a program. Men would frame interest in me as being about my research, but then once I was in a situation where I’m alone with them, it switches to being a date. It’s hard when you are constantly reminded of your gender, or made to feel really uncomfortable and sad about the fact that you thought something was professional attention but it was actually about your gender.

“Men repeatedly told me that I got to where I was because there was some quota that needed to be filled and they needed to have a certain number of women in a program.”

What was it like transitioning into tech and what was the impetus for that?

When I graduated from my PhD., I wasn’t sure what I wanted to do. I applied for a lot of different jobs. I applied for teaching positions, research positions, and I applied for jobs in industry. In the end of my search, I had a bunch of different opportunities. What attracted me to tech in particular that it felt like a good way to apply my technical skills but in a way that was more down to earth.

A lot of my astrophysics research work was very obscure and theoretical. It was hard for me to feel motivated when there were maybe ten people in the world who really understood what I did. Tech is also a more casual industry than finance or consulting. I felt like it would feel more culturally similar to academia. I’m from the Bay Area and there’s a lot of tech jobs here. It meant that I didn’t have to move. I did my PhD at Berkeley so I was back here again. Ultimately I thought “Well, let me try this out. It means I get to stay here, it means I get to try this new thing. If I really hate it I’ll re-apply for academic jobs again in a year.” But immediately, I enjoyed the work so much and realized this is a much better fit for me, in terms of the day-to-day, than academia.

What are the most exciting things to you about your work? What really activates you?

I’m a data scientist, and essentially what I do is work with a lot of different people within my company to help them make decisions and decide what action they should take, based on what’s going on with the data. I help my company understand how customers are behaving, where there are inefficiencies, where we’re losing people, or where we are most successful. It’s really fun, because I’m constantly working on different areas and different focuses. Sometimes I’ll be working with the marketing team. Sometimes I’ll be working with our technical team. Sometimes I’ll be working with product. I have a very broad scope.

People come to me with open-ended questions, and I get to define how we might get to an answer and ultimately help them make the decision they need to make. It’s a really creative process. I have a lot of freedom of how I’m going to approach the problems. Then it’s also very technical. There’s usually a lot of math and programming and visualizing data. Then there is also a communication piece, where I’m taking this complex set of data and trying to explain it to people who maybe aren’t as technical, and help them understand what the data means, and how they might take those insights and translate them into some action. It uses a whole bunch of different skills.

People are usually super grateful. Everyday people come to me with their problems, if can help them solve them, they’re really excited by that, and so it’s a very satisfying job. It’s not customer-facing. My clients are internal, and I like that a lot because the people who I help, are the people that I interact with every day. So I feel very valued within my company.

The work is always changing. I never do the same thing twice. One day I’ll be doing something for our CTO, then the next I’ll be working on something for our PR team. So, I’m constantly learning, constantly having to think of new ways to approach problems. It’s not boring or repetitive at all, which is really fun.

“Lately, I’ve been thinking a lot about the areas where I have privilege. I’m white, and so I don’t really understand what it’s like to be a person of color. How can I understand that experience more and advocate more for people of color in my community?”

When did you turn your attention to feminism and inclusion?

It’s been a long-standing interest of mine. When I was diagnosed with a learning disability in high school I became very interested in advocacy for people with disabilities, and I founded a group at Occidental College (where I went for undergrad) for students with disabilities. Our goals were to create awareness in our communities about what having a disability means, what it entails, and how everyone can be supportive in various learning environments. We also educated people with disabilities on how to advocate for themselves, and communicate their needs to others. Being part of that group was really great. It helped me think about not only my own disability, but other types of disabilities. There were people in that group that had physical disabilities, or mental health issues. It very much broadened my perspective and helped me understand the way that these disabilities impact people’s lives.

In graduate school, I ran a women’s group for physics, astronomy, and planetary science students. We focused a lot on the gender issues is those departments, most of which had less than 20% women in them. I started learning about things like unconscious bias, imposter syndrome, the wage gap, stereotype threat, and the leaky pipeline within STEM.

When I graduated from Cal, I was asked to be on the Committee for the Status of Women in Astronomy (CWSA), which is part of the American Astronomical Society, (astronomy’s big professional society). As a member of the CSWA, I started writing for their blog and and eventually became the editor-in-chief. Then I started talking about these issues and engaging with them with the entire astronomy community. When you write about things on the internet, especially feminism [chuckles], you get a lot of pushback. Having (mostly online) conversations with people who don’t necessarily believe the things that you’re talking about, or don’t think that there’s still discrimination this day and age, well it has really helped me tune my debating skills. It has also helped me to take an intersectional approach to feminism, and not just think about women’s issues but the intersection of race, gender, sexual orientation, ability, class, religion and try to understand how all these identities interplay with each other.

Lately, I’ve been thinking a lot about the areas where I have privilege. I’m white, and so I don’t really understand what it’s like to be a person of color. How can I understand that experience more and advocate more for people of color in my community?

“My disability affects my reading and writing. I have something similar to dyslexia. The way that I frame it is that the neural paths in my brain that connect and decode the words I see and assign meaning to them are really jumbled. So, for me, it takes a really long time to interpret written words or to express my thoughts in written words. I read at about the twentieth percentile in terms of speed. My intelligence is much higher than that, so there’s this mismatch in how I perform when doing timed reading tasks versus the level that my intelligence says I should be able to perform.”

What is it like being in tech with a learning disability? Does it affect you at all now? I’m also curious to know, in your work in the community, what issues you’ve seen with other folks with disabilities in Silicon Valley.

Having a learning disability hasn’t been something that has affected me as strongly in the working world, because I’m not often in scenarios where I’m being tested or asked to complete some task with a very fast timeline.

My disability affects my reading and writing. I have something similar to dyslexia. The way that I frame it is that the neural paths in my brain that connect and decode the words I see and assign meaning to them are really jumbled. So, for me, it takes a really long time to interpret written words or to express my thoughts in written words. I read at about the twentieth percentile in terms of speed. My intelligence is much higher than that, so there’s this mismatch in how I perform when doing timed reading tasks versus the level that my intelligence says I should be able to perform.

I have figured out a lot of work-arounds for that. Like if I have to read something, I always have my computer read it to me, because I can comprehend things I hear instantaneously, but reading involves me going back a few times before I can understand it as well. And similarly, when I write, usually the first draft has tons of grammatical errors and mixed up words. But if I have my computer speak it to me then I can easily fix those things. Now I just know if I have to read something or write something, it’s going to entail this extra process.

In the working world, it’s not that often that you’re handed something and have to read it in front of someone while they watch you, so people don’t really notice that it takes me longer to read and write. But it is something that I have talked to with my managers about and just said, “Hey, this is something that I struggle with. If there is ever a scenario where I’m going to need to perform something or need to read something kind of in the moment, it would be better for me to have it ahead of time. When there is a really important report that I’m going to have to get out, it would be great if you could look it over, because this is a thing I struggle with.” People have been really understanding and I think I’ve gotten better with my own work-a-rounds such that it doesn’t impact me as much as it did when I was in school.

In terms of general disability issues in the working world, there are certain accommodations that are required by the American disabilities act like having accessible bathrooms or having accommodations for people who struggle with mental heath issues.

Unfortunately, there doesn’t tend to be a lot of conversations about disabilities at a company wide level. Most people don’t even understand the scope of how disabilities affect people’s work. For instance there is somebody at my work who has fibromyalgia, and that means that sometimes he can’t physically be at work because he’s in a lot of pain.

Luckily our work is such that we can do a lot of it remotely and so he’s able to work that out with his manager. If he wakes up and he’s having a really bad day, then he’ll work from home. Yet that involves having to disclose this status to his manager, and some managers are more understanding than others. So one thing that I try to do (in conjunction with HR) at places I work is to increase understanding as a company about how disabilities affect people and the ways that they can be accommodating that aren’t going to negatively impact the performance of the company. I think there is a general concern: “Oh well, if I hire someone with a disability, that person is going to be less productive, or less valuable to the company.” Just helping people understand that is not the case, as long as you’re willing to be flexible and give accommodations which allow people to perform at their best.

“I think there is a general concern: ‘Oh well, if I hire someone with a disability, that person is going to be less productive, or less valuable to the company.’ Just helping people understand that is not the case, as long as you’re willing to be flexible and give accommodations which allow people to perform at their best.”

How have you observed the cultures of academia and tech? How are they similar, how are they different?

Both are places that have very intelligent, passionate, quirky people who are trying to do something that no one’s ever done before. People who are pushing the boundaries of what’s out there. In both places there is a lot of competition and other people attempting to you, or do the same thing.

I would say that one thing that has been very different about being in industry (versus academia) is that there are not as strong power dynamics. In academia, you have these tenured professors who are famous, and they can pretty much make or break your career. You’re very dependent, especially when you’re a student or a postdoc, on these people to write papers with you, giving you access to their grants, giving you access to their experiments, and their telescopes. If there’s some situation of abuse going on or you’re having a personality conflict with someone, it’s harder to survive that in the same way as you can in industry. In industry, especially in the tech industry, as a data scientist or a software engineer, I’m in high demand. If a company is not the right fit for you, or you clash with someone, then you can easily find something else, so there’s not as much pressure to make a situation work.

Because of these hierarchies of power in academia it’s a little bit trickier. One bad relationship with someone could mean you have to leave academia, or switch research areas entirely. I think there are also more protections in place at businesses. Ultimately HR wants to make sure that nobody sues each other, and so they try to proactively deal with any conflicts. Whereas in academia, if a student is having a problem, often the university is incentivized to just get rid of the student or hide. They aren’t incentivized to protect the student. Ultimately (right now at least) there is a lot more jobs available in tech versus academia. When I was applying for postdocs, I’d be lucky if I got one or two postdocs in the entire country. If those didn’t work out, then there wasn’t that many options for me. Whereas once you’re in the tech industry, you are constantly being approached by recruiters to join the next new hot startup, so you feel like, “Okay, I have a lot of options and I’m not stuck anywhere. I don’t have to put up with a bad situation.”
In general, has your life improved as a woman since you go into tech? It sounds like it.

For the most part it’s been night and day better. One start-up where I worked, I was the first woman on the engineering team and for about six months until we hired the second woman. They were amazing. I never felt like my gender had anything to do with why I was hired. I always felt like, “You were hired because you’re the most talented person that we interviewed, and we think you rock.” That was really, really great. But simultaneously they were very careful to make sure that I felt comfortable and not have it be this like bro-grammer environment. There were many times when they checked-in with me, saying, “Hey, was that okay? Do you feel uncomfortable?” They really were thoughtful about making sure that it was a good environment for me, and that was amazing.

In general, I’ve just always felt like being a woman on the technical teams has, if anything, helped me. The men have been extra supportive, I guess, because they recognize that I am one of a few women and they want to make sure that I feel okay and comfortable, and so I have felt that people have gone a little bit above and beyond to try to make me feel supported.

I have had some interesting experiences with companies where the general culture at the company has been a bit bro-y, and so while my direct team has been really supportive for the most part, I’ve had to deal with general company culture that was pretty hostile for women.

One company I was at we had this policy that you should lock your computer when you leave it unattended for security reasons. And as kind of a joke / punishment, if you ever came across a computer that was unlocked, then you could send a message to the all-company chat channel from that person’s account. These messages were usually funny or silly. So my first day at this job, I forgot to lock my computer because, you know, it was my first day, and I was still figuring it out… and someone not only posted on the all-company channel from my account. “It’s my first day and I’m already drunk. Oops.” which was kind of embarrassing, but then also sent a private message to a senior member of my group saying, “It’s only my first day. but I already want you.”

And he knew right away that it wasn’t me, but his response was, “Keep it in your pants, Kirkpatrick.” And ultimately, it was just a very weird, charged interaction to have with a teammate on your first day at a new job. And so my response was, “Okay, I guess this is what it’s going to be like here.”

And another thing that happened at that company was that in my first couple weeks I was being trained to interview people for the data team. My first phone interview that I was conducting by myself, I was in a conference room and facing towards a glass wall outwards to the rest of the company. One of my coworkers was trying to mess with me during the interview, to make me laugh, or whatever. At first, he walks by and he’s being a little silly, like walking funny. I was not responding because I was trying to focus on this interview. So he just kept escalating and escalating, and it got to the point where he was pretending to masturbate and ejaculate on the glass wall, and was pushing people up against the glass and humping them.

I came out of the interview, and said, “When I am interviewing someone, that’s me being a representative of our company to an outside person. What are you trying to do by making me distracted or feel weird during this interview? That’s really not okay. Not only is it unprofessional and disrespectful to this other person, it also makes our company look bad to this outside party.” He said, “Oh, lighten up. Come on.” I said, “I don’t want to see you pretend to masturbate. But this is not just about you and me, this is affecting someone else and my ability to judge this other person.” I got really mad.

“At first, he walks by and he’s being a little silly, like walking funny. I was not responding because I was trying to focus on this interview. So he just kept escalating and escalating, and it got to the point where he was pretending to masturbate and ejaculate on the glass wall, and was pushing people up against the glass and humping them.”

I’m curious to know what it’s like being a local and watching this whole ecosystem change over time. What are your feelings about being a local in the tech community?

I definitely have a lot of weird feelings about being one of those techies that a lot of local people are resentful of because of the ways that the tech industry is gentrifying San Francisco, raising the cost of everything and all of these inequities between how much tech people make and other people in the community make. I work in mid market, so I work right near the Tenderloin. And it makes me feel very uncomfortable going from Civic Centre/Bart Station where there are people living in the BART station, sleeping in puddles of their own urine. People who are incredibly sick – physically sick – and clearly need medical attention. I walk from there into this fancy building where there’s free food and alcohol, and we have all these amazing perks. The dichotomy of it is so striking.

And especially because I went into graduate school thinking I was going to be an educator, and so I never anticipated making the salaries that we make in the tech industry… It’s way more than I ever anticipated having. Way more than my family had when we were growing up. It’s uncomfortable for me to know, “I am the one percent” of the US that we’re all talking about, like I’m the people that the protesters of the Google buses are protesting.

“We’re not serving those populations. We’re just pushing them away, hiding them. That’s very uncomfortable for me. There’s a lot of decadence and extravagance in the tech industry that I don’t feel is deserved, and I feel weird taking part of.”

On the other hand, when I was growing up, you wouldn’t go to the Tenderloin. You just don’t go there, period. You wouldn’t ever go to certain areas of Oakland. And now it’s ok to walk around those neighborhoods, and you don’t have to constantly worry about safety. It’s nice to see these neighborhoods becoming less violent, but at the same time, poor people are being pushed out.

We’re not serving those populations. We’re just pushing them away, hiding them. That’s very uncomfortable for me. There’s a lot of decadence and extravagance in the tech industry that I don’t feel is deserved, and I feel weird taking part of. For instance, I once went to a holiday party, and it was like a scene out of a movie. Every hour new entertainment came out. We would have acrobats doing aerial performances, or people on stilts, or a marching band. It must have been a $200,000 party. It was open bar and there was a tattoo artist doing temporary tattoos and a photo-booth. I just kept thinking, “This is so over the top. Why are we spending ten grand on acrobats when we’re not even a profitable company.”

While I understand in order to retain talent, you need to keep your employees happy, I don’t know. I’m uncomfortable with a lot of the decadence and extravagance, especially for companies that are being funded by investor capital and are not profitable. I guess the bottom line is, I don’t know how I feel being part of it. I’m so grateful for my job and I’m so grateful that I am well-paid, but there’s something messed up about the fact that there are people who are so wealthy next to people who are so poor. We don’t have the services in SF to help the homeless people, yet we’re spending all this money on the app “Yo.”

“While I understand in order to retain talent, you need to keep your employees happy, I don’t know. I’m uncomfortable with a lot of the decadence and extravagance, especially for companies that are being funded by investor capital and are not profitable. I guess the bottom line is, I don’t know how I feel being part of it. I’m so grateful for my job and I’m so grateful that I am well-paid, but there’s something messed up about the fact that there are people who are so wealthy next to people who are so poor. We don’t have the services in SF to help the homeless people, yet we’re spending all this money on the app ‘Yo.”

My last question for you would be, as a local, as a woman, as someone with a disability, someone from your background, how would like to see tech do better, or how do you think tech can do better, in general?

In general, I would like the tech industry to focus more on things that are sustainable — not just because we have a million users and they’re going to see ads, and ad companies are going to pay for it — but actually fulfill a need where there is a clear way to monetize. I just think that there is this different set of standards for tech companies than there are for brick and mortar companies, and I don’t know why. I’ve intentionally chosen companies where it is clear how they are going to make money, and I think that they are addressing a need that is not being addressed in another way. So I would like more of a focus on that.

And then if we’re going to be bringing tech companies and putting them into poor communities, we need to to be also supporting the community, and finding a way to lift up those communities, so that we’re not just this negative impact that is causing gentrification and housing prices to go up, and increasing traffic, but also a good force within the community. I would like that to be more of the ethos of what we see ourselves trying to do in the Bay area, in San Francisco, and in Oakland, as companies are starting to move to Oakland. I don’t know the best way to do that, but I’d be happy with taking a pay decrease, or having less extravagant parties, and having more of that money go towards supporting our communities. We don’t need to have this dichotomy where everyone in the tech industry is driving Teslas but walking over homeless people on the way to work. I would like that to be more a part of our belief system as an industry.

“If we’re going to be bringing tech companies and putting them into poor communities, we need to to be also supporting the community, and finding a way to lift up those communities, so that we’re not just this negative impact that is causing gentrification and housing prices to go up, and increasing traffic, but also a good force within the community. I would like that to be more of the ethos of what we see ourselves trying to do in the Bay area, in San Francisco, and in Oakland, as companies are starting to move to Oakland. I don’t know the best way to do that, but I’d be happy with taking a pay decrease, or having less extravagant parties, and having more of that money go towards supporting our communities. We don’t need to have this dichotomy where everyone in the tech industry is driving Teslas but walking over homeless people on the way to work.”

I’m originally from San Francisco.  Actually I technically grew up in Millbrae, but I went to K-12 in the Sunset district of San Francisco. Most of my family is based here. I’m back in San Francisco after being gone for about ten years for college, grad school, and working as well. I’ve been back since late 2011.

How did you first get interested in tech?

I used to be a civil engineer – I worked in that industry for about four years and started to get really bored. I was doing a lot of repetitive work, and projects would last for years. I didn’t get to see the fruits of my labor as soon as I wanted, so I wanted to be in a space that used more innovative technology where I could see results faster. Based on what I was hearing it sounded like the tech industry was super fast-paced and that’s what I decided to transition into. I started to look for all types of jobs in tech and at the time, I thought I only qualified for customer support positions. I started working in customer support to get my foot in the door. It was really funny when I was applying because the company said, “A civil engineer with a Master’s degree in mechanical engineering is applying to work in customer support: we think she might be overqualified.”

Walk me through that transition, once you were in tech, working customer support, and teaching yourself how to code.

I worked in customer support at two companies, as a Community Manager and Customer Engagement Manager for about a year-and-a-half to two years. At one of those companies, I thought I wanted to do usability, but that didn’t end up panning out for me. I thought I wanted to continue working with people.

“’A civil engineer with a Master’s degree in mechanical engineering is applying to work in customer support: we think she might be overqualified.'”

Then I started to become interested in HTML and CSS because a friend of mine talked about building her own site and a site in Flash for a client as a side project. I decided to take a HTML and CSS workshop, which was about 12 hours in total. Eventually, I moved back to San Francisco without a job. During that time in addition to job searching, I started building a portfolio of art projects in HTML/CSS and posted that online. That was exciting and I thought it was super cool.

That’s when I took the Customer Engagement Manager role, which was more technical than the previous one. Customer Engagement Managers there had read access to a database, and I provided support regarding our HTML/CSS Craigslist templates and API. Our manager taught us how to write SQL queries so we could kind of view data, which really helped in customer support. I’d tried to learn Python and then I also tried to learn PHP because that company’s stack included PHP, but I didn’t take to either of those languages.

Then one of my coworkers recommended I learn Javascript. You can run it in your browser and you can view your changes quickly. So I took another 12 hour workshop over a weekend with Girl Develop It and learned Javascript. I started building all types of things and going to hack-a-thons, going to hack-nights, hanging out with more experienced programmers, and asking them a zillion questions. Eventually I transitioned from Customer Engagement Manager to Web Developer. I started working on HTML emails, which are a horror, but a good place to start.

“I started building all types of things and going to hack-a-thons, going to hack-nights, hanging out with more experienced programmers, and asking them a zillion questions. Eventually I transitioned from Customer Engagement Manager to Web Developer.”

How do you feel like your background in multiple disciplines affects how you work as a dev?

I definitely wouldn’t say I’m an expert. I like to say I’m a Jane of all trades, master of none. [laughter] Certainly customer support affects the way that I work as a developer. Working mostly on the front end, I do think about our customers. I try to think of all types of people who might be using the platform instead of just thinking about people like me. That helps me as a developer – having empathy for people who might not be the most technically savvy or people who have qualities that might limit their interactions with websites.

Working in civil engineering helped with developing a technical mind and thinking about things in a formulaic way. That really helps in programming in general. Also in all engineering disciplines, essentially create building blocks, which are more digestible and used to build larger blocks. Software Engineers called it abstraction, but Civil Engineers don’t have a term for it. Abstraction of formulas and calculations exists in civil engineering. That’s definitely translated over to the way that things work in Software Engineering realm.

“Customer support affects the way that I work as a developer. Working mostly on the front end, I do think about our customers. I try to think of all types of people who might be using the platform instead of just thinking about people like me. That helps me as a developer – having empathy for people who might not be the most technically savvy or people who have qualities that might limit their interactions with websites.Working in civil engineering helped with developing a technical mind and thinking about things in a formulaic way.”

One other thing that overlaps is the relationship between civil engineers and architects is very similar to the relationship between programmers and designers. It’s funny: architects will create designs and then they pass that on to civil engineers who actually vet those designs with calculations. Designers create visual mocks and pass those onto developers, who build out the code. Equally true is the overlap within the industries themselves: architects and designers are often very technical, either knowing structures or writing code themselves; and civil engineers and developers often have an eye for design, throwing together what might be a great looking window or website.

What about working in tech and in Silicon Valley has been really awesome for you? What are things you’re proud of?

Being able to create my own projects out of thin air. The innovation and speed of innovation have definitely met my expectations for the industry. You can build a website overnight and I love that aspect of Tech. I guess that’s more personal. That what I do professionally, I can also use to produce personal projects is awesome – I have a lot of fun doing that.

I’m also so proud that one of my projects, (Human) Wasteland, became a political talking piece around homelessness in SF. I used programming skills I developed put the site up in just a week. The fact that a small, week old project could raise awareness about the lack of resources for those experiencing homelessness in San Francisco is so amazing! I still can’t believe that happened.

What have been some of your biggest struggles or roadblocks?

Coming from a non-traditional Computer Science background and being an “older” Chinese American woman in Tech has been interesting. There’s definitely unspoken bias. Since I’ve started working in tech, I’ve been the oldest person on all but two teams, the only woman on all but one team, and the only Asian woman on all of the teams. Some of those teams became more diverse and some became less diverse over time.

“Coming from a non-traditional Computer Science background and being an ‘older’ Chinese American woman in Tech has been interesting. There’s definitely unspoken bias.”

But… you’re not old at all.

I know. I’m in my early thirties, so it’s kind of shocking, but really interesting. I think you kind of have to take it with a grain of salt.

But I’m also frustrated when I think about what is being innovated in Silicon Valley. Most of the innovation is going towards things that are built for the types of people who already work in the industry. And I feel like having a more diverse team – or a more diverse workforce in the industry in general – would really help broaden the horizons of what the industry can actually do and what we could bring to the world outside of tech. But right now there are so many apps that are just replicas of existing apps.

The other day I conversed with coworkers about learning to cook and they said, “Oh there’s an app for that.” Then they listed a number of apps that do exactly that or a slight spin on it, e.g., “Oh, do the chefs come to your place or do you go to the chef’s house?” That sort of thing. I find that extremely frustrating in tech.

“Most of the innovation is going towards things that are built for the types of people who already work in the industry. The other day I conversed with coworkers about learning to cook and they said, ‘Oh there’s an app for that.'”

I have a lot of internal conflict: I want to do social good and use my skills to bring about change, but I still work in an industry where the majority of people don’t feel the same way. So that’s been a strange experience and personally hard to juggle or manage.

You mentioned bias and microagressions in your pre-interview and I’m curious what that’s been like for you.

It’s interesting because I think I’ve experienced racism and microaggression all of my life, but now that I’m older I notice it more. When you’re younger and it hasn’t happened as often, it’s easier to just brush off and not think about it. But as you become older and the more you experience it, the less tolerant of those issues you become.

It’s happened with strangers and it’s happened with friends. Usually, I don’t think people intentionally try to hurt you. That almost makes it worse in a way, because they don’t even need to think about what they’re doing to you. People can just say things about race, ethnicity, gender, sexuality, disability, or age without having to stop and think about it.

Microaggression definitely affects the way you work: how you interact with coworkers or people in the industry and how you network. It can even affect your career. If you can’t work with those people who are saying racist or sexist things towards you or if you are not comfortable at work, then how do you further your career? How do you move up within a company? Or how do you move up within an industry if you’re being looked down upon? People don’t see you for your skills or your ability. They just see your race, ethnicity, gender, sexuality, disability, or age.

“I think I’ve experienced racism and microaggression all of my life, but now that I’m older I notice it more. It’s happened with strangers and it’s happened with friends. Usually, I don’t think people intentionally try to hurt you. That almost makes it worse in a way, because they don’t even need to think about what they’re doing to you. People can just say things about race, ethnicity, gender, sexuality, disability, or age without having to stop and think about it.”

I think this industry isn’t alone in its discrimination– it happens in so many industries. Civil engineering is somewhat similar, except most civil engineers are closer to the tech investor profile or archetype. In general, mostly older white males dominated civil engineering. So I think discrimination and microaggression happens everywhere– it’s just now that I’m in tech, I definitely notice those problems more that before.

You mentioned being the oldest person on your teams—do you experience ageism at 32?

[chuckles] I don’t think so, not super directly. I wouldn’t say ageism outright, but I think people in tech typically don’t consider people who are older or caretakers, or have families and obligations outside of work and partying. A lot of team bonding involves drinking or happens after work when people may need to go home and care for their children, parents, grandparents, etc. I’m at an age where I think, “Yeah, I don’t really want to drink every night.” So I think it’s more of a microaggression rather than actual, direct ageism.

You also mentioned sexual harassment being an issue.

Yeah, sexual harassment has definitely occurred at multiple companies where I worked, but not always directly to me.

The first time it happened to me, I wrote a long article about it. I’m still surprised that it was allowed to happen. I don’t know if sexual harassment is worse in tech, but I feel like when you have an industry that is predominantly young, male, focused on partying, and being the “fun” industry, all of those factors combine to create an atmosphere that almost encourages sexual harassment. At least in instances I’ve witnessed or personally experienced, alcohol was definitely involved. And those incidents occurred in the office, so I’m of the opinion that company culture and values make a huge difference.

I also noticed that the people I know who have sexually harassed others have done it multiple times: repeat offenders. I don’t know if there’s any way to fix this, but I wish there was some way to pass that information on because even if they’re punished, these people are just rehired because there’s such high demand for people in tech. Unfortunately, I think companies that once employed them are protecting themselves by not defaming those people when they get fired for sexual harassment.

In this industry with the emphasis on partying and a “fun” atmosphere, people become friends. Everyone becomes super friendly. But when you lack a more professional atmosphere, people don’t want to call out, reprimand, or punish coworkers for sexual harassment.

“I feel like when you have an industry that is predominantly young, male, focused on partying, and being the “fun” industry, all of those factors combine to create an atmosphere that almost encourages sexual harassment. At least in instances I’ve witnessed or personally experienced, alcohol was definitely involved. And those incidents occurred in the office, so I’m of the opinion that company culture and values make a huge difference.”

In my case of being sexually sexually harassed, I reported it.  I think I was one of the first employees to officially report it, but eventually found out that many of my coworkers knew about that dude’s history of sexual harassment and/or had been sexually harassed by him. Not only that, but when he was sexually harassing me and other women at the company, he was dating another coworker and lying about it. And the guy just got a slap on the wrist. He wasn’t fired, he was barely scolded.

It’s a super long story, but basically he went on to date one of the people whom he managed and used company resources to take her along to a conference, i.e., a company paid vacation. So it was just a super strange situation overall that was allowed to continue– nothing was ever done about it. He eventually quit of his own accord.

Wow.

Yeah. People liked him and so they don’t want to fire him.

That is nuts.

Yeah [chuckles].

“In my case of being sexually sexually harassed, I reported it.  I think I was one of the first employees to officially report it, but eventually found out that many of my coworkers knew about that dude’s history of sexual harassment and/or had been sexually harassed by him. Not only that, but when he was sexually harassing me and other women at the company, he was dating another coworker and lying about it. And the guy just got a slap on the wrist. He wasn’t fired, he was barely scolded.”

On a more positive note, have you had mentors or people that have inspired you in your career?

Yeah, I’ve had a lot of engineering mentors, people who guided me along the way and gave me advice on what I should be learning.

When I moved back to San Francisco, the manager I ended up working for was running a very technical customer support team. He was a great manager and helped push me towards software engineering without him even knowing it. He allowed me to handle all the technical support for our API and HTML and CSS Craigslist templates. That really really helped me in my development and towards my trajectory of becoming a software engineer. He could really pinpoint people’s skills and push them in that direction, and cleared roadblocks to help that happen.

It’s funny: people have told me what he said about me as an employee and I heard that he said something along the lines of, “yeah, Jenn was kind of a pain in the ass.” Because I asked him for a lot– I was demanding as an employee but he was a great manager.

“Many communities in Tech support people who are starting out and also people who are experienced. I learned JavaScript through Girl Develop It. Initially, that network was helpful for meeting other women, learning javascript, and staying involved. But there are tons of these networks: Girl Geek Dinners, Women Who Code, RailsBridge, PyLadies—you can really have your pick, and all these women have been extremely supportive.”

And at the very beginning of transitioning into Web Development, there were so many friends and coworkers who were extremely helpful by just answering questions, steering me towards the right technologies, attending hack nights and hackathons with me, and encouraging me.

Many communities in Tech support people who are starting out and also people who are experienced. I learned JavaScript through Girl Develop It. Initially, that network was helpful for meeting other women, learning javascript, and staying involved. But there are tons of these networks: Girl Geek Dinners, Women Who Code, RailsBridge, PyLadies—you can really have your pick, and all these women have been extremely supportive. It’s also a great way to track what’s going on in the industry particularly with women.

I was also a member of a feminist hackerspace, Double Union. I found out about it via AdaCamp which was run by The Ada Initiative, which is sadly defunct. But AdaCamp was awesome– it really opened my eyes towards women in tech, acknowledging the issues that we face, and discovering that I’m not the only person deals with those problems. That was a really amazing experience. So joining Double Union was really great for me. Lots of wonderful, supportive, accomplished women are members that organization.

In the last year or so, I spoke at a bunch of conferences and it’s been pretty crazy the last few years for me, being really immersed in tech.

How does it feel being a San Francisco native who works in tech?

It’s a huge catch-22 [chuckles]. I love my job– I love being a software engineer. I really enjoy the work that I’m doing and learning new things every day. I also so lucky that the best place for me to find a job in my industry is in my hometown where all my family live. That’s also amazing.

At the same time, the change that tech has brought in San Francisco makes me really sad. I recently talked with my boyfriend about how the archetype of San Francisco completely changed from when I grew up here.

I feel like I’m part of the problem and also part of the solution. I wish that more people in tech cared more about people in the city outside of tech. I wish that they were more involved in community and building community, but I don’t feel that. Not in this industry. I feel like they only want to build community within tech or predominantly tech neighborhoods. It’s strange. After coming back here, the change was palpable and it’s only getting worse.

I feel like I’ve been personally trying to get more involved in local community to be part of the solution. I pretty focused on homelessness currently, but also generally on politics. I’m a member of League of Women Voters and trying to be more involved.  I also try to inform people about the connection between tech and politics. For example, wealthy tech investors are often heavily involved in San Francisco and California politics and that’s typically bad for people in San Francisco.

Also I’m involved in St. Francis Homelessness Challenge, run by former mayoral candidate Amy Farah Weiss. It’s basically a year-long challenge trying to provide resources and solutions for people who are experiencing homelessness. I’ve been trying to be more involved by volunteering for the Challenge.

“The change that tech has brought in San Francisco makes me really sad. I feel like I’m part of the problem and also part of the solution. I wish that more people in tech cared more about people in the city outside of tech. I wish that they were more involved in community and building community, but I don’t feel that. Not in this industry. I feel like they only want to build community within tech or predominantly tech neighborhoods. It’s strange. After coming back here, the change was palpable and it’s only getting worse.”

What you think that tech companies could do to be more involved in the city that they’re in?

The first thing is reducing greed. I assume that’s difficult because most startups here run on borrowed money. They’re all running on money given to them by investors, so I suppose they kind of need to be greedy in order to become profitable. I don’t know the best thing to do in order to avoid that.

Certainly, giving back helps. I know many companies offer time off to employees so they can volunteer, but I know people in tech who leave and volunteer outside of San Francisco. So they’ve taken time off to volunteer in a community where they don’t live. Or they’ve gone to volunteer with the ASPCA, so they’re walking dogs.

My high school in San Francisco required two types of volunteer work in order to graduate. 50 normal and 50 core hours. Core hours required you to be out in the community interacting with people in a very real and palpable way. For my core hours, I worked a weekend at St. Anthony’s, an organization that provides essential support to San Franciscans living in poverty. I served food to people, talked with them, and cleaned up afterwards. I also volunteered for Via Services, formerly Crippled Children’s Services. I worked at an overnight camp for people with disabilities and special needs. I helped organize activities and games, helped with cleaning, and general care giving and participation during my time there.

If the tech companies provide time-off to their employees, they should mandate that the time is spent on San Francisco’s people and communities, in other words, things that really matter and actually helped enrich the city.

Another thing companies can do is educate their employees about what’s going on in San Francisco. I doubt something like that would happen though. There’s a crazy story by Pando Daily (https://pando.com/2015/10/26/conway/) that revealed Ron Conway emailed CEOs of companies he had invested in, telling them how to vote in the San Francisco November elections. Of course, you know he was saying, “Vote against Proposition F, the Airbnb law, and vote against Proposition I, the moratorium on housing in the Mission district,”. This is crazy and disturbing, but many people in tech who don’t even know about these things or how the companies they work for are funded by super corrupt people like that. I really do think education, knowledge, and awareness would be helpful in making a better city.

Where do you see yourself here in 5 or 10 years. Are you still going to be working in tech? I’m assuming you’ll still be living here.

Yeah, I think I’ll still be in San Francisco. Practically all of my family is here, so it’s really hard to leave. I have over 50 family members within the Bay Area.

While applying to work for Eventbrite, I applied to work for 18F, which is basically a consultancy that lives inside the federal government. Their funding comes from the United States General Services Administration. 18F basically is contracted out by different agencies in the federal government to work on different websites and improve project management practices. So they’re all across the tech stack, helping the federal government function more efficiently and help citizens gain faster access to services.

“I’m super interested in that: working in civil service and politics. Just doing software engineering for social good or working towards social good. That’s my ultimate goal.”

Unfortunately, the timing of things didn’t quite work out for me because I’m relatively new to software engineering. I was looking for more face-to-face, in-person interaction and mentorship. And most 18F teams are distributed, so many employees work remotely. Sadly, I turned down the offer. But I think that could be in the future for me, assuming 18F is still around after this upcoming election– they better be! I’m super interested in that: working in civil service and politics. Just doing software engineering for social good or working towards social good. That’s my ultimate goal.

What kind of potential do you see in that space? Like what about that potentially is really exciting to you?  What would you like to see tech doing in that space?

There’s so much potential for improvement. There are agencies where many things are not even digitized yet. For example, when I hear about and see photos of the Department of Veterans’ Affairs, I’m just so shocked and saddened by the state of things there. Knowing that soldiers are not receiving the benefits they need after training and fighting for this country, giving up years of their lives to do that work: I look at that and I think, “Wow, there’s so much that we could do. There’s so much that ordinary citizens can do to help all these other [chuckles] ordinary citizens all around us.” That’s really exciting to me because you/we have so much power to affect so many people in a more positive way.

“Tech right now is so focused on money, investments paying off, and profitability. And I’m not interested in that. Getting paid well is awesome, but the fact that you could help people obtain health care, soldiers paid for the time they’ve put in for the country, helping immigrants settle and get legal help: that’s so much more exciting to me.”

Tech right now is so focused on money, investments paying off, and profitability. And I’m not interested in that. Getting paid well is awesome, but the fact that you could help people obtain health care, soldiers paid for the time they’ve put in for the country, helping immigrants settle and get legal help: that’s so much more exciting to me. And there’s so much work that could be done to help so many people in the country.

What advice would you give to folks who are either feeling stuck in tech or trying to transition into tech?

My number one piece of advice is staying really open to whatever path may lead you to tech.

I started out in tech as a customer support agent, and I feel like that’s one of the least glamorous ways: answering phone calls and emails from people asking how to change their password. But, if I hadn’t been open to that, I probably wouldn’t be in the tech industry now.

What you say yes to in order to transition into tech will often surprise you too! Working customer support really helped me empathize with customers and that makes me a much better engineer now. Be open to different possibilities or different paths. You don’t have to pay for a boot camp to learn software engineering, and you don’t have to be a software engineer in order to be in tech. Be open, be willing to do your research, and find other ways to get in the door. Especially for people who can’t afford to pay for boot camp or to take three unpaid months off.

For people who are feeling stuck in tech: many skillsets in tech cross over to lots of different industries. What my friend does as a business analyst is similar to what analysts do in tech. Be a business analyst in tech or be a business analyst in a ton of other industries. Design work also crosses over to a lot of different industries. Even engineering! My boyfriend’s mother actually started out in banking, then ended up running the computers there. She’s now a software engineer for another bank. But she could always go back to banking.

If you’re feeling stuck in tech, you should definitely get out (GTFO). Don’t continue working in the industry if you don’t feel like it’s right for you. Anything’s possible. Of course, it really helps to have a safety net, so first make sure you have that safety net in place before you jump ship. But my overall advice is that you can absolutely use your skills towards other jobs in other industries. Tech is not the end all be all solution.

“My number one piece of advice is staying really open to whatever path may lead you to tech. I started out in tech as a customer support agent, and I feel like that’s one of the least glamorous ways: answering phone calls and emails from people asking how to change their password. But, if I hadn’t been open to that, I probably wouldn’t be in the tech industry now.”

I’m from Miami. My family family has four kids. I have an older brother, I have a twin sister, and I have a little sister. I did really well in school. I played sports: basketball, track. I went to college in Miami and then I went to law school at Florida State. I always liked tech, but it wasn’t a career when we were kids. There was War Games and Space Camp and movies about the craziness of hackers—how it could go horribly, horribly wrong, but it wasn’t a job that you could have. My elementary school—I was in a gifted program and they had a computer class—and I built a space game on a Commodore 64. Yeah, I’m dating myself. [chuckles]

I was really into tech when I was really young, but it wasn’t a thing you could do. And when I got to undergrad, that’s when email came out. I remember they were like, “You can have email.” I was like, “What the hell is email?” They were like, “You can write letters to people on the internet.” [chuckles] Napster was out then.  It was all kind of the early wild, wild west before Google.  And then when I went to law school, it was the first year they had a laptop requirement, and so we all had to get laptops, which was awesome. I downloaded the Mame arcade simulator, and so I just pressed F8 or whatever to put in quarters, and I’d be sitting in law school playing video games. It was awesome. [laughter]

“I was really into tech when I was really young, but it wasn’t a thing you could do.”

Then I finished that and went to D.C. and got a Masters of Law, because I didn’t know what lawyers did day to day, and I wanted to be good at what I did before I started it. But it seems I educated myself into a bit of a black hole.  Instead of staying in D.C., I went back to Florida and no one knew what my degree was or what could be done with it, and nobody wanted to pay me to figure that out.  But I had classmates who had my degree and they got credit for an extra year of practice and got jobs at these big firms, and I couldn’t get interviews. It became very clear that people are kind of colorblind to a degree when you’re young because you’re in school and you’re not really a threat, but once you come back as an adult, things change. I wasn’t ready for that transition, my family wasn’t ready for it, and it caused some really difficult times.

Wow.

Yeah. So then I practiced law for a while, which wasn’t what I ultimately wanted to do. I wanted to be a law professor, but I practiced for a while because my parents put their foot down after three degrees.  I needed to get a job.  So, I did practice but unfortunately I ended up working for people who saw the law as a business, not a profession. Which means that my ethics didn’t line up with theirs.

And so I kept ending up in situations where people would think that I should be so happy that they gave me a job that I should do whatever they wanted me to do. But I had earned my position. I had three degrees. Like you didn’t just hand me the job. But just by virtue of who I was it just became a thing that, “Yeah. But who else is going to hire you?”

So I kept ending up at these firms where they wanted to do things to make them richer at the expense of the clients. And at some point I was like, “You can continue going down the same path or you can do something different.” So, I decided to do education for a while.

And actually I had a pretty good time like with the students.  But once again I ran into some difficulties and ended up not being offered a position in 2008, which was the beginning of the recession.  If you got let go at that time, there was really no backstop. So, I ended up doing a couple different jobs, I was a personal trainer for 24 hour fitness [chuckles].

“I basically packed up all my things into four bags and took planes, trains, and automobile, all the way to L.A. I stayed with my twin for the holiday season, and I moved sight unseen to San Francisco with my unemployment check as my only source of income and started sending out applications.”

Oh man.

Yeah. I did a variety of things. I was teaching at the Strayer, in their business law of department. I was teaching white collar business law and I looked at my book and I realized there were no lawyers who wrote it. I was like, “Why are there no lawyers in a white collar criminal law book?”  And I realized, it was because lawyers didn’t like business and businessmen didn’t like the law. So I was like, “Oh, well, maybe, I can fill that niche.” So, I went back to FIU and got a Masters in International Business.  I specifically went back to my undergrad because it’s an international focused university, and I wanted an opportunity to do an international internship. And I did that.  My last semester I had an internship in Scotland. I worked for a start-up—actually incubator high tech company that made holograms. Actual holograms.  Like, “Help me, Obi Wan, you’re my only help!”

[ laughter] It’s insane. When I was working with them, they were a start-up, so I got to work on their website and stuff like that. I got into a little bit of HTML, and I was like, “This is kind of cool.”  When I came home, I had been thinking of this idea of a website.  Black Americans traveling internationally is a pretty new phenomenon in the numbers that we’re currently doing it. And a lot of us– because I’d done a couple of study abroads and every time I left the country, the whole community was like, “You’re going where?” [laughter] There’s an anxiety. And you can’t really say, “Oh well, he went or she went.” And it’s hard to point the elders to information. And you kind of just—you look like you’re just going out there on your own. I was like I should probably do a website for Black American travelers. So you can have basic information that you can share. That became my passion for a little while.  I created a website and it was a whole big thing, learning all the different coding and whatnot.  I did use a platform but still you have to learn some things on your own. I’d taken a position with an e-book publisher, so I learned more HTML and even some CSS. Just various things on how to structure content and whatnot. But I’d gotten to a point in my life and in my relationship at the time where things just weren’t working in Florida. I always try to come back to Florida to be successful because I’m from Florida. You see all these other people in your home doing these things, and you just want—this is my home, I want to be successful in my home.  But I finally reached a point where I had to realize it wasn’t going to happen. I’ve only been in California a year [chuckles]. I came here last January—actually the November before. I basically packed up all my things into four bags and took planes, trains, and automobile, all the way to L.A. I stayed with my twin for the holiday season, and I moved sight unseen to San Francisco with my unemployment check as my only source of income and started sending out applications.

I was in hostels. Then, the week that I was supposed to receive my last unemployment check, I completely freaked out.  I was like, “I had no other backup.”  I couldn’t go back to Florida, I had nothing. So, I’m online, I’m looking, I’m looking, and I found a job meet-up that was hosted by the San Francisco LGBT Center. So, I walked from North Beach down to the San Francisco LGBT Center.  I had no idea how far it was. I get there, and it had already started, but they were cool and we talked. They said they’d help me with my resume. I came back the next day, and they helped me with my resume and I went back to the hostel, revamped it, and then I papered the entire Bay Area with it. The next day, I was supposed to come back and talk to a career counselor. And I wake up in the morning, I look at my phone, and I have an email from this dude at Google.com.  I almost fell out of my bunk! [laughter] Because I was like, “What? I didn’t apply to any jobs at Google.”  So, one of the jobs I’d applied for was for a vendor who worked on campus at Google. He was like, “Hey, can you have a phone interview on Monday?” I was like, “Yes!”  So the phone interview was cool. He asked me if I could get down to Google on Wednesday. I took a bus, and then the Caltrain, and then two buses. I couldn’t find my first bus stop when I got off the Caltrain, and so I was freaking out, and my friend in Florida is trying to Google map it for me, and it was a whole thing. I find the bus stop, get on the bus, get off, go get some food, and go stand at the second bus stop for twenty minutes like, “Oh, I have plenty of time.” And the bus comes like, “Oh, no, you’re supposed to be on the other side of the street.” Now, I’m freaking out like, “I’m going to miss this interview!” Mind you, I’m right down the street from the campus, but I’ve never been, so I couldn’t tell. I just didn’t know.

“I couldn’t go back to Florida, I had nothing. So, I’m online, I’m looking, I’m looking, and I found a job meet-up that was hosted by the San Francisco LGBT Center. So, I walked from North Beach down to the San Francisco LGBT Center.  I had no idea how far it was. I get there, and it had already started, but they were cool and we talked. They said they’d help me with my resume. I came back the next day, and they helped me with my resume and I went back to the hostel, revamped it, and then I papered the entire Bay Area with it. The next day, I was supposed to come back and talk to a career counselor. And I wake up in the morning, I look at my phone, and I have an email from this dude at Google.com.”

Finally, the second bus comes, I get off and have to walk all the way to the edge of campus. But I actually got there fifteen minutes before my interview, after I’d already called the guy like, “I don’t think I’m going to make it on time!” And then I made it, and it was cool.  I had the interview and it went really well. I’m walking out and I was actually walking on Intuit’s campus because they’re across the street, and I was just walking around on the phone because it’s just beautiful. I get a phone call and I had to tell my friend, “I’m going to call you back because I’ve got a phone call.” And it was the recruiter saying they wanted to offer me the job and I was like, “What?” This was the day I received my last unemployment check. [chuckle] I got offered the job as a vendor at Google. The next day I got on a megabus and headed right to my sister’s in L.A. and just vegged out for two weeks. She was like, “You can just stay here.” It was great, and I started, but even then it took a while to get up and running. I still didn’t have housing together, that took a while. The first place I got housing I signed a six month sublease, and then in three months my sub-lessor [chuckle] contacted me and was like, “Yeah, so the lease is up.” And I was like, “What?” “Yeah, you need to get out this month.” That was tough and it was just a variety of different things like that that kept popping up.

I ended up actually having to leave Google because the prospects for long-term employment had gotten kind of iffy. Not that it wouldn’t have happened, but their time frame was a lot longer than mine. I had uprooted my whole life. I wasn’t really in a position to be in a wait-and-see kind of attitude. So I took the opportunity to go to Yahoo, which was terrifying [chuckles] because all of my friends were at Google. It’s the first place I called home since I left home. It was the family that I made in California. But I went to Yahoo, and almost immediately upon entering Yahoo as a contractor, they interviewed me for an FTE position. And about two weeks into January, I signed my contract for an FTE position. I started my Google contract position February 23rd of last year, and I was scheduled to start my Yahoo full-time position February 13th of this year.

Wow.

It was.  The difference a year can make is extraordinary.  But, unfortunately, Yahoo fell apart about a week after our initial interview and my job went with it.  They called the day my background check cleared and rescinded my contract.  It was devastating.  A body blow.  It shook my entire network.  Like, I had come to California to change my life and I made it happen all in one year.  And one phone call snatched the rug from under me, under all of us, yet again.  It’s hard to keep getting up.  And, if there was ever a moment where that was a question, this was it.  But, I think my fighter is hard-wired.  Like she can go on auto-pilot when all of my other systems shut down.  So, I somehow managed to apply for a few jobs during the devastation.  And my circle held me up.  My sister and my girlfriend particularly.  The Monday after the news, my girl ended up spending the day with me.  And we went for a walk in the park.  It was such a nice day out, sunny and warm, and it just healed me some.  Like, I was still hurt, but I wasn’t shattered anymore?  Like I could move forward. And that week a recruiter contacted me.  We had a really good phone interview about a job that wasn’t for me.  And she told me she also recruited for Google and asked if I wanted to go back.  And I told her “With all my heart and soul.”  Because when you take a blow like that, you just want to go home.  And Google is my home here.  So, we found a position I liked, I interviewed and I got it.  I’ve been there for a few weeks now and it’s different, like when you move back with your parents after college [chuckles].  But it’s good.

So how it’s been? Has tech lived up to your expectations? What are your first impressions?

Well, it is difficult when you start at Google, is what I’ve learned. Google is tops. It really—it doesn’t get much better, in my experience. I clearly come from a very difficult background, employment-wise. It doesn’t matter how intelligent I am, or how hard I worked, there was always a problem. And Google was the first place that I’ve worked where no one gave a shit. No one cared at all. And it was funny because I was actually sitting in one of the cafes one day, and a whole bunch of new Googlers—Nooglers—were coming off of a bus, and the first guy looked at me and was like—and you could see him running his training in his head like, “if she’s here, she’s supposed to be here.”  And I’m watching them all walk by and have this same conversation in their heads.  I know that it seems like they shouldn’t have to do this, but thank god they do. I’ve never been in a position where people self-corrected. When they recognized that they had felt something unreasonable and then fought themselves to make it right. I just felt that was brilliant. It’s not utopia, everywhere has difficulties but considering where I’ve come from, I could not have landed at a better place. My time at Yahoo was good but for different reasons. There was opportunity at Yahoo. There were things that I could do, things that I could bring to the company. But cultural wise, it’s a little more difficult because there wasn’t much diversity on campus. I didn’t have the self-correction thing. I had more just open stares–

“I clearly come from a very difficult background, employment-wise. It doesn’t matter how intelligent I am, or how hard I worked, there was always a problem.”

You mentioned that.

During my first week or so there, people just kept walking by my desk and looking at me, to reassure themselves that I’d still be there. There aren’t a lot of black people, and then I don’t resemble the ones they’re comfortable with. I used to have permed hair, I was a lawyer and would wear heels and suits and whatnot. I’m much older now and at this point, you’re going to be who you’re going to be. So I wear my little t-shirts and long sleeves [chuckles], and I wear my hair natural. And there just aren’t a lot of people like me at Yahoo. So it’s not hostility. It’s more discomfort, but it was disconcerting and really affected my decision to accept the FTE position. Because if I’m not there, then who’s there? So the culture can use a little help [chuckles], but the opportunities were there. So it was a balance. I’ve been in outright hostile situations more often than not. So a little bit of, “Oh my god, she works here?” I mean I could do without it, but it’s not going to destroy it for me [chuckles]. At this point, it’s a lot better than what I’ve seen before.

“Even in New York, people would stare at me. And I was like, ‘There’s a guy painted silver down the street. Why am I interesting?'”

It’s a blessing almost for you to be able to have that perspective, but I hate that it has to happen in the first place. You know what I mean?

Yeah, and it’s a hard fought blessing because in my twenties, it would have been different. But in my twenties it was new and raw, I was struggling with it a lot more. So to come here at this age, and for it to be this kind of struggle—I’m comfortable with it. So I kind of feel like all of the out-and-out fighting [chuckles] I basically did to hold onto my humanity on the East Coast kind of prepared me for the questioning looks of the West Coast. It’s just things are softer here. It’s not like the issues don’t exist, but people don’t tend to take it as far as obviously. It’s more abject curiosity. It’s funny because there are a lot of minorities in tech, they’re just not American minorities. It’s like, if you can accept minorities from other countries, why can you not accept your own? It’s the number one issue that I’ve had with Silicon Valley. We don’t ever seem to have a problem with the amount of women from other countries. We don’t ever seen to have a problem with brown people from the opposite side of the globe. But when you see a black person in tech or you see a program for Latinos in tech, then suddenly people are up in arms and, “Why are we handing out this and handing out that?” It’s like there’s an assumption that if people come from other countries, then they must have done something to make it. If minorities come from here, they must have been given something. I have four degrees from very good universities, so clearly no one gave me anything. You may have given me opportunity, but no one’s handing me my job. The fact that I don’t get the same credit, just to start, is frustrating. This is the life story for black women in this country for decades. So, just like those before us, you’re just kind of hoping that if you continue to do what you do, then maybe it will be easier for the next.

“It’s funny because there are a lot of minorities in tech, they’re just not American minorities. It’s like, if you can accept minorities from other countries, why can you not accept your own?”

You have a super interesting background. You have degrees in multiple disciplines. You’re so well-rounded and you come from the other side of the country, like myself. You didn’t go down the typical path at all. More and more, there are conversations around how being unique and being different makes you such an asset, in terms of contributing to a team or bringing perspective to a product. How do you think that impacts your approach to work and makes you bring something to the table?

Yeah. Well, I’ve always been a contributor. I enjoy being on a team. I appreciate that dynamic. My first stint at Google my diversity in intelligence, I guess, made me a leader.  Amongst my group at least, because they appreciated that I could see different sides of an argument, and because it makes it—I become like a translator. Especially since my first Google team—my first team at Google, there was me, a woman from Japan, a woman from Brazil, and an American girl with—she worked with the Canadian market.  So we all had very different understandings of the same sentence, and I could understand all of their understandings, and help them explain them to each other. And so I tend to bring value in that aspect, and people tend to be open to that. As far as it translating into a wider contribution to the company, that’s more difficult, because people are rightfully to some degree concerned about their position, and there’s always a difficulty because people think that you have the same motivations they have. And so people who are motivated by position are always concerned about other people trying to take theirs. If you have a good idea, or a good approach or something like that nature, they’re more concerned with how it affects them ultimately. ‘Will she come take my spot?’ But that’s a position I’ve always been in so I’m very comfortable with that– people thinking that way. It’s unfortunate, but that’s what my norm has been. I value Google. I value Yahoo. I value these companies that play a daily role in my life. For me it’s not really about, ‘Oh, if I do this I get to move here or do this?’ No, it’s about, ‘If we make Yahoo stronger it helps all of us.’ Yahoo seemed to be pretty open to using me in a variety of ways. I’ve only been back at Google for a few weeks but from the conversations we’ve had thus far, they’re open to using the talent I have in the ways that best benefit the company. That’s why I value Google, because that’s a philosophy I can believe in. We’ll have to see if it follows through, but I don’t really have much reason to believe that it doesn’t. The people who are in charge of that type of thing seem to have the mindset that I agree with, and the people who have difficulty with it don’t seem to be in my chain of command.  So, I’m not so concerned. It seems that at least in my department, the people at the top are pretty comfortable with who and what they are, and so they’d be willing to allow me to help the company when the opportunity presents itself.

“I have four degrees from very good universities, so clearly no one gave me anything. You may have given me opportunity, but no one’s handing me my job. The fact that I don’t get the same credit, just to start, is frustrating. This is the life story for black women in this country for decades. So, just like those before us, you’re just kind of hoping that if you continue to do what you do, then maybe it will be easier for the next.”

I love that you can have that focus.

At some point, I spent a lot of time fighting the expectations, fighting people’s opinions, fighting for what I rightfully earned. And I was miserable. And I didn’t get any of those things that I’d worked so hard for. The expectations were still there from one side, but people still saw me how they wanted to see me from the other, and I never received any benefit. You can only beat your head up against the wall for so long, and so then I was like, “Well, let me try and find an arena that doesn’t make me fight so hard for my humanity,” and I felt like tech was it. And it has been. While I was still a contractor at Yahoo, they still allowed me some input into some arenas that I didn’t expect. They actually took my input legitimately and forwarded it through proper channels and treated me as if my ideas mattered. And that’s the thing that I liked about Yahoo at the time, that that they still had the capacity to see human beings. It wasn’t a machine, there was still a human component. I think as long as they manage to keep that, they still have a fighting chance.

At work, do you have kind of a support network that keeps you grounded, or do you find that elsewhere? Like the LGBT community that you were involved with when you first got here?

I was actually heavily involved with LGBT ERG at Google, which is interesting because a lot of tech companies in Silicon Valley don’t allow vendors and contractors to be involved in their groups, which I think is really unfortunate. But I found a home with the Gayglers. A lot of them are still my friends, and a lot of the people who I worked with when I started are still my friends. At Yahoo, I made some more relationships. A couple of people I started friendships with. But I didn’t spent as much time on their campus in that way.  I hadn’t connected with their LGBT community, but between my old Google friends, my newer Yahoo friends, my girlfriend, and hopefully new Google friends. [chuckle] I actually met my girlfriend at Google as well.

Oh, really? Oh, man! It’s like you just found treasure as soon as you got here.

It was like the perfect place for me to start. I couldn’t—it wasn’t the place for me to grow at the time, but it was the place for me to get on my feet. And I will always appreciate it for that. Everywhere can’t be everything. I think I needed to be there to get a floor, to get a family, you know a home? But then, I had to branch out just like you do when you’re a kid. At some point you have to leave home, try to create something bigger for myself.

I really respect that. I think a lot of people a lot of people take the safe—they just stick around. You know?

Comfortable isn’t always safe and that’s what I was concerned with. Towards the end of my first Google gig, we were comfortable, but we didn’t feel safe. I felt like I could stay here and ultimately lose it all, or I can make this leap and possibly gain a whole lot. And it seems I made the right decision.

Have you had mentors, people that you know or you don’t know people that have inspired you on your path?

My twin inspires me, she always has. Our family is very competitive, and my twin is very smart, but I’m Very smart. In our family dynamics it was always difficult. She would study really hard and would get a B, and I would play around and scan the book last second and get an A. That’s tough. I don’t think she realized that I noticed that. Obviously I wouldn’t have felt guilty, this was in high school and middle school, but it wasn’t that I didn’t understand that our situations were different. I always kind of wanted her to get what she deserved or be what she wanted. She worked so hard. She went through, for several years she wanted to be a model, so I used to help her with that dream and whatever dreams she had. Recently, she actually published a book. She had her own launch party and it was awesome. It’s a dream that she’s been working on for seven years. I would edit it, then she’d pay to have it edited then she paid for a book cover, and images, and this, that, and the other. My whole life she has worked hard to pursue different dreams and I watched her. Even when they didn’t go the way she wanted, she never just quit. She never just said, “Well, I guess that didn’t work.” She would just find another dream and pursue that one. I was always inspired by her ability to keep going. When it got difficult for me, I didn’t necessarily look back on that example but I think I always had a little bit of it in me.

Over the last maybe ten years or so, we’ve gotten pretty close, and she’d call and check-in at the most opportune times [chuckles]. Just encouraging words to keep me moving. She had been trying to get me to leave Florida for some time. The last time I went down and it didn’t work out she was over it [chuckles], and so when I actually decided to go, she was all—”You need to come, you need to come here. It looks like you need to come here.” When I got the job as a vendor at Google, I couldn’t work out the housing situation since I wasn’t getting paid anymore, and she was like, “You can just stay here for a couple of weeks. My roommate will be fine. You’ll just sleep on the couch.” Even when I started working there, I still had to get finances together and get housing, and she would send me a little money here or there or talk to me and keep me focused. And  basically she’s kept me from being a hothead over the last two years, which is a thing. I’m not just generally a hothead, but once I hit a point, I’ve hit that point, and she’ll talk me down and like, “Look, this is where you were, this is where you are. I know this is difficult, but this is where you are, and it’s better than where you were, so breathe, relax, and then you can make a decision.” She said that a lot over the last year, year-and-a-half. I can’t say that I have any mentors in the tech community or anything like that, but having her in my corner has been—it’s a lifetime thing. She’s given me a path to follow and she’s a positive voice in my ear and I need it.

“I’m very excited about the ability of tech companies, since they have the resources and they have the ability to train and they have the people flooding their gates. They really do have the ability to pick and choose a workforce that can be anything they want it to be, and to create a corporation unlike any that you’ve seen. They are being socially responsible but profitable and bringing something good to the world. What scares me is what I actually see.”

I’m just curious to know what you think about the state of tech in Silicon Valley right now. What are you excited about, and what really frustrates you and what do you want to see change?

I’m excited about the possibilities of—when I was in business school, they talked about transnational corporations. And it’s like a new form of corporate entity, how you do business, how you see the world. And it’s really only possible if you, like a tech company, bring people in from all over the world and make a global focus your focus. So it’s not about diversity as in this many people of these people and this many of these people. It’s a diversity that’s bigger than that. It’s diversity of thought, diversity of focus, and how you approach problems in situations. So I’m very excited about the ability of tech companies, since they have the resources and they have the ability to train and they have the people flooding their gates. They really do have the ability to pick and choose a workforce that can be anything they want it to be, and to create a corporation unlike any that you’ve seen. They are being socially responsible but profitable and bringing something good to the world. What scares me is what I actually see.

“We have this idea of, everyone was a nerd, so why would there be bullies?”

That people are people, and when an organization gets large enough, they’re going to have a certain amount of people who are there for reasons that don’t align with the corporate strategy structure, vision, and mission. And allowing those people too much time and too much power can ultimately destroy an organization. You lose your focus. You lose your good people. And it scares me because it happens when it doesn’t have to. Companies that don’t necessarily need to cut cost, use contractors with completely opposing visions to cut cost. But you don’t need to cut cost. So why would you affect your work pool in that way? And so I see talented people moving from company to company to company, because the vision that they thought the company had when they came in was not the reality the C-suite built. And so I’m talking to different friends of mine who work in different tech companies, and the atmospheres are not what people outside of tech think they would be. We have this idea of, everyone was a nerd, so why would there be bullies? All of us got overtalked in high school and elementary school, so why would we overtalk people? You figure that this would be the one arena where you would know how to treat people, and care to treat them that way. And that’s the dream of Silicon Valley, for all of us who are coming from wherever, when we come here. But then we get here, and it feels a lot like the East Coast, and that’s demoralizing. Because if we can’t be better in Silicon Valley, we can’t be better. Where else in this country are we ever going to have this opportunity where there are enough resources, enough jobs, and enough companies with missions that aren’t just money-focused? There’s nowhere else in this country where we have this ability to be better. So if we can’t do it here, it speaks for all of us. And it’s scary. And so that’s—my biggest fear is that we won’t recognize that we can do better, and we’ll be mean girling in the cafeteria at a tech company in Silicon Valley, when all of us grew up on the other side of that. There shouldn’t be a place for that here. This is really our only safe haven, pretty much tech and academics, and if those two go down, then there’s no safe space for the square pegs and that’s a scary proposition.

“If we can’t be better in Silicon Valley, we can’t be better. Where else in this country are we ever going to have this opportunity where there are enough resources, enough jobs, and enough companies with missions that aren’t just money-focused? There’s nowhere else in this country where we have this ability to be better. So if we can’t do it here, it speaks for all of us. And it’s scary.”

Yeah. This is supposed to be the place where you can be an other.

Yes. Comfortably so. Accepted and appreciated for that. I mean, I’ve seen it in spots, and then I’ve seen the complete opposite. And it’s scary when you think we may get more of that than what we expected, you know?

Yeah. I’ll be curious to see what happens. I worked in tech for a few years, and six years ago, it was way more— it felt way more weird. Does that make sense?

Mm hmm.

It doesn’t feel so weird anymore.

Way too normal.

I don’t know how I feel about that.

It’s becoming way too normal. I shouldn’t stick out at all, you know [laughter]? I really shouldn’t. That’s the whole idea. That was what I loved about when I first got to LA. No one looked at you. Even in New York, people would stare at me. And I was like, “There’s a guy painted silver down the street. Why am I interesting?” But when I first got to LA, no one cared at all. And I just thought it was the greatest thing ever—that I could just be.

Yep.

But more and more, I’m becoming a thing again, and that is not what I expected. Nerds should be more open and accepting [chuckle]. So that’s been a bit of a concern. I don’t know how long it’s been going on because I’ve only been here a year, but I’ve felt it in the time that I’ve been here. And that’s disconcerting.

Going back to something you talked about earlier. People talk a lot about the hiring problem and the pipeline problem and the addressing diversity issue from a hiring perspective, but I’m also really interested in retention. And that’s not talked about quite as much. You’ve got people coming to the industry. They’re coming, but you’re losing them, like you said. I’m curious to hear your thoughts as someone who has this perspective in consulting and business strategy, and your thoughts around how are folks missing the mark in terms of talent retention.

They’re making it too complicated. It’s not that hard. Just don’t make me feel like I’m not supposed to be here. I’ve worked at two pretty big tech companies at this point. And the biggest difficulty that I’ve seen is most of the diversity is going to be in your contractor and vendor pool. There are more Black people working as contractors and vendors at Google than as FTEs. There are more of us working as contractors at Yahoo than working for Yahoo. So a lot of these companies don’t necessary have an issue with minorities. But they create a pretty clear line between contractors and FTEs, which creates a separation between your largely minority force and your largely majority force. And so you end up in a situation where everyone who looks like me is probably a contractor, so nobody pays attention to you. And you end up with full-time employees who are treated like contractors because that’s what people see. If the majority of the contractors are minorities, and the majority of FTEs aren’t, then “If you’re a minority, you must be a contractor, I don’t have to pay attention to you.” So it’s a structural way of internalizing these attitudes and beliefs that we didn’t intend to foster. There’s no real need for that.

I mean, your contractors work for you. You can’t do your business without them. They’re not necessarily less intelligent. I know that because I have four degrees and I’m a contractor, so clearly we’re not inferior beings.  But the issue is the need to create an entitled position socially. You already have stock options. You can go to the health center. There are already things that you can do that contractors can’t do. So, the fact that you have to create this ‘we’re better than you’ atmosphere necessarily injects some level of discrimination into your company that didn’t have to be there. I mean, it’s one thing to have different badges. No one really cares until it becomes a thing, until I’m walking on campus and I see someone look at my badge color before they say hi to me or don’t say hi to me. Or before they walk past me like they don’t see me. Those things aren’t necessarily racist when they’re set up, but if I am one of less than 2% of black people on your force, but your contractors have plenty of black people, all of a sudden now I am an ‘other’ because everyone thinks that I must be a contractor. It just makes it more complicated.

Just have your work force treat everyone like they’re okay. Say hi to anybody that walks past you. Speak when you’re spoken to.  Just basic human sensibility, and you can keep your minorities. Nobody’s asking for extra. Nobody wants a handout. Nobody needs special treatment. We just don’t want to be treated poorly. I think there’s this anxiety around the issue, and it makes people do a whole lot of things, but they don’t do the basics. So you’re having these courses, and you’re having these talks, and oh, let’s have a seminar, and a symposium, and let’s do this, and write this article, but when you walk around campus, do you say hi to each other? When you’re sitting in a meeting, do you notice when someone has something to say? When they say that thing, do you actually listen to it, and comment based on what they said, or do you just run through it like they didn’t say anything at all? Just basic human sensibility will make people want to work for you. But when you make it us versus them, then it’s more complicated, and then you have to try to force people. “Don’t treat these people worse than…” And so now people are actively trying to be overly friendly, which is also disingenuous, nobody wants that. I don’t want you to say hi to me because I’m the black chick. I want you to say hi to me because I’m on campus and I looked you in your face. That’s just basic. We manage, but it’s this whole– I work for, you work at, and that sense of entitlement has permeated all the Tech companies that I have even spoken to my friends about. And all those Tech companies have diversity issues.

“It’s not that hard. Just don’t make me feel like I’m not supposed to be here.”

Whoa. That’s just like a totally new systemic issue to me that is blowing my mind right now. It’s almost like, it’s creating—and I’m sure it’s not on purpose, but it’s created the system in which discrimination can be quietly applied to an area of tech that is not necessarily stigmatized and that’s crazy. It’s crazy.

Do you remember the situation where minorities are afraid to speak to other minorities? Because it’s like, “If I speak to you and you’re a contractor, they’re never going to believe I’m not a contractor.” Now you’ve created dissention within the minority groups because nobody wants to be connected to someone who is lower than them because people already want to think that they’re lower. So it’s just highly unnecessary, just speak, just work, just be kind to one another. It’s not that complicated. Teach manners in these intro classes. Teach cross-culture communication. People who grew up in this area think of things this way, the east coast sees it this way, the west coast see it this way, this country sees it this way, that country sees it that way. Know that while everyone won’t fit into those individual groups or sets, you may want to be cognizant that people from this country may speak about things in this light, or it may be more effective to explain it this way. Just teach people how to communicate with each other, and how to be kind and people will stay. We like our jobs, everyone who comes here likes their job. We just don’t want to be tortured and we don’t want to be a zoo animal. [chuckle] We don’t want to be petted, randomly, by people who think it’s their job to pet you. We just want to be a human and go to work every day. That’s all you want to do. It takes an effort in communication and understanding that everyone here deserves to be here. No one’s handing out jobs, to anyone, from anywhere.

“Just have your work force treat everyone like they’re okay. Say hi to anybody that walks past you. Speak when you’re spoken to.  Just basic human sensibility, and you can keep your minorities. Nobody’s asking for extra. Nobody wants a handout. Nobody needs special treatment. We just don’t want to be treated poorly.”

Lordy. People are treating it like it’s a zero-sum game. You are not taking something from someone, by being present.

That is also a difficulty.  The, “Oh well if we hire these people there’ll be less of—” No there won’t. There are still jobs, they’re still hiring. I hate the argument every time you say, let’s diversify. People say, “well we don’t want to lower our standards.” Did you lower your standards for me? Because I believe that I out-degree most of the people at my company. So it’s just this automatic assumption that we need a handout when it’s not that. The issue is, I have 4 degrees but I may have never been interviewed. How many people like me are out there because you want to interview people who you know and you understand and you feel comfortable with? Well, for the good of the company, maybe you should expand who you know, who you understand, and who you feel comfortable with. I’ve spent a lot of time traveling. I’m comfortable with pretty much anyone, pretty much anywhere.

“How many people like me are out there because you want to interview people who you know and you understand and you feel comfortable with? Well, for the good of the company, maybe you should expand who you know, who you understand, and who you feel comfortable with.”

A lot of people don’t travel.  Or they’ll travel with their friends to specific places that feel an awful lot like home.  So you don’t actually get a view of the world or meet different people or learn different things. It’s not that you’re actively not hiring women or any other minorities, it’s that you don’t know them and you can’t communicate with them. So you’re afraid of them and you’d rather not have them in your closer circles. That’s why teaching basic communication, teaching basic human kindness would make it easier to hire and to retain minorities of all sorts.

There’s is some media syndrome and I don’t think we understand it. You see it every day when you check Facebook. It’s like people feel like it gives them some sort of, I don’t know, intelligence credit. If they can just shoot people down and be hateful all the time. It’s like a new badge of honor of some sort, you know to be mean and unreasonable and just to hate [chuckle] for absolutely no reason. I don’t understand it. Life is really short, like really short. And I can’t waste time for any of it. I won’t waste time for any of it. I think by the time some of these people realize how short life is, they will have blown quite a bit of it. Just wasting life experience.

Yeah. I don’t think it works long term. I’m not convinced.

[chuckle] Maybe you won’t become a bitter old person. When I was in high school we were having a school function outside at my high school and I think there were older people.  I was standing outside waiting for my mom to pick me up, and a couple of them walked out and they were nice and they said hi or whatever. But two or three of them were just mean, just went out of their way to be mean to me because I was the youth and I was this and that, you know “kids these days.” And I was like, “How are you this bitter when you’re this old? Have you always been bitter?” But it’s just a horrible way to live. It’s like, even if you’re physically kind of crippled as an older person, if you’re kind, it changes the whole appearance of your face. It changes how the room feels when you’re in it, and I would rather go out like that than cussing the gods [chuckles] with my last angry breath. It just doesn’t seem to be worth it. Especially since you work in tech. How bad can it be [chuckles]? Really? This is like Disney World. How bad can your life be? They pay good salaries. The housing is expensive, but it’s nice. You can afford it on your salary. The food is good. You can get organic and whatever special stuff that you crave for a reasonable price. They will deliver anything from anywhere to your door at any point in time. You can go off the grid or use Google’s fiber or their phone service or anything else, anything that you want is within a dial of your phone. Wow, why so angry? [chuckles]

I so understand. I think perspective helps.

Yeah, I think it does.

Where do you think you’ll be in five or ten years? Do you think you’ll still be here?

Oh, no [laughter]. No, I’ve got plans. I wanted to do tech for a long time, and I have a set period of time that I want to spend specifically in tech solely. But I had dreams before I came here. So this was a dream that I wanted to fulfill, but it’s not my ultimate dream. Well, part of it was. Working at Google was an ultimate dream, but I’ve done that. So that’s cool [chuckles]. But yeah, I have things that I want to do with my life once this phase is over.  I’m not a lifer, but I don’t think I’ll ever truly leave tech. I was always kind of in it anyway. So this is a very important chapter in my life, but it won’t be the only one.

I’m excited to see what happens, what you end up doing. My last question for you was going to be what advice would you have to people who face similar struggles to you who are hoping to get into tech?

Don’t listen to anyone or anything. Well, listen, but always give yourself the final say. I don’t have a single tech degree [chuckles]. I came here to do a General Assembly course in UX design and it all fell apart when I was on the train in Texas because I couldn’t find housing. But I’m still here and now I’m in my second stint at Google with greater responsibilities. So it is possible.  If you’re willing to put in the work it is possible. You may have to go a different route. You may have to do some different things, but just don’t let someone else dictate to you the path that you need to take to be here. I had several people who I was trying to have as mentors who tried to tell me, “Do it this way, do it this way,” but they weren’t ways that fit what I wanted for my career and for my life. And I appreciated that they were trying to help me, but I had to do it my way, and I’m very happy that I did. Oh, and it will not be easy.  There will be traps and pitfalls, the rug may even get pulled more than once.  You can’t help what happens to you.  If you get hit hard enough, you will fall.  But you can control how you fall.  Always fall forward.  Take the blow.  Allow yourself the hurt.  But never go backwards.  Fight to fall forward and you’ll always have a reason to get up.

“You can’t help what happens to you.  If you get hit hard enough, you will fall.  But you can control how you fall.  Always fall forward.  Take the blow.  Allow yourself the hurt.  But never go backwards.  Fight to fall forward and you’ll always have a reason to get up.”

My parents first came to California in the 1970s from Indonesia. They didn’t come from wealth, but my father was brilliant in mathematics and used that as his ticket to get out. He studied in California, had in internship in Alabama, where I was born, and then got his PhD at Iowa State. My earliest childhood memories are from my family’s ranch-style house in Ames, Iowa. Lots of snow. Lots of cornfields. Lots of pink puffy coats in the winter. Eventually, we made it east to New Jersey, to a classically suburban town called East Brunswick. It was strip malls, Applebees, exactly what you imagine when you think of a middle-to-upper-middle class New Jersey town.   

“My parents first came to California in the 1970s from Indonesia. They didn’t come from wealth, but my father was brilliant in mathematics and used that as his ticket to get out.”

East Brunswick was super diverse, I had friends of every stripe, and yet I was also the only Indonesian girl I knew of my age. So from early on I felt like an outsider. I think feeling like an outsider—like I never quite fully fit in—trained me to be an observer. I was constantly wrestling with my sense of otherness, exploring why I felt like an “other” and not fully part of the American culture. It became really interested in dissecting people’s stories and understand how people related to each other in groups. That intense curiosity to understand culture and people’s stories drew me to journalism.

How did you first get into technology?

It’s hard not be in awe of tech when you grow up at a time when personal computers were becoming ubiquitous and the consumer internet was unfolding. I remember when my father first brought home Prodigy, one of the earliest online portals, and it was packaged in a giant yellow box. I remember thinking, “Wow the whole Internet—whatever that means—is inside this box.” That sense of wonder sticks with you. As soon as I could type, I remember sneaking downstairs to connect online. Later, my first job as a teen was traveling to computer shows to sell cell phone plans and parts.

“From early on I felt like an outsider. I think feeling like an outsider—like I never quite fully fit in—trained me to be an observer. I was constantly wrestling with my sense of otherness, exploring why I felt like an “other” and not fully part of the American culture. It became really interested in dissecting people’s stories and understand how people related to each other in groups. That intense curiosity to understand culture and people’s stories drew me to journalism.”

I think it fostered the feeling that everything is accessible—just an e-mail, button or Google search away.  The world is smaller, things that seemed out of reach before seem less so today. I think that can have a profound impact on a child’s psychology and sense of limitations. I wouldn’t be surprised if that dynamic is as responsible for the current boom in tech as say the increase in computer processing power.

What were your impressions of Silicon Valley when you first arrived?

I initially moved to Palo Alto in the wake of the financial crisis, while Wall Street and the large economy were still reeling from the subprime financial mess, an interesting shift was taking place, the re-ascendance of technology powered by smartphones.

It was early days, but you could feel that the seat of power was shifting away from the financial sector and moving west. This was a time when Uber was just a handful of employees, when a billion dollars was still a BIG deal with a capital “B,” but the town was electric, brimming with start-ups on the precipice of transforming entire industries and larger-than-life personalities, both good and bad. Who wouldn’t want a front seat?

How did you make that transition from a successful journalist to entrepreneur, and how were you able to leave it all behind?

I found myself restless a couple of years ago. At the time I didn’t know it would lead to entrepreneurship, it was just a tickle in the back of my mind. As a teenager I used to fantasize about my future career, I didn’t just want to become a journalist, I had a plan, I wanted to be on the front page of the New York Times by the age of 25 and permanently on staff by the age of 27, then you know, eventually die at the New York Times. By 2010, I was right on schedule. But something funny happens when you think you’ve accomplished your childhood dreams, sometimes you realize what wanted so badly at 17, is not what you want at 27.

Several moments both big and small eventually led to clarity—one was a short conversation I once had with Reid Hoffman, the founder of Linkedin. He said something that really stuck with me. He was telling the story of Archimedes, a brilliant mathematician and inventor who once said “Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world.” Reid brought up Archimedes in the context of his career and how he always wanted to create positive impact at truly massive scale. I had never thought of my own career through that lens but that statement deeply resonated.

“As a teenager I used to fantasize about my future career, I didn’t just want to become a journalist, I had a plan, I wanted to be on the front page of the New York Times by the age of 25 and permanently on staff by the age of 27, then you know, eventually die at the New York Times. By 2010, I was right on schedule. But something funny happens when you think you’ve accomplished your childhood dreams, sometimes you realize what wanted so badly at 17, is not what you want at 27.”

I realized in that moment that that I was also drawn to that north star, and not only that, but that I was hungry for a singular focus. I wanted to drive all my weight against one boulder to move the needle. And as this industry has proven again and again, entrepreneurship is a great vehicle for that.

But it wasn’t all introspective meditation. I would also have to blame my partner Dan for tipping me towards entrepreneurship. Dan, who co-founded his own startup, Zozi, many years ago, has been such a cheerleader and advocate through this whole journey. He helped me realize that I have the constitution to endure this grueling track. He also introduced me to my co-founder Angela several year ago. Even then, when I was still in the thick of journalism, he said, “You’ll love Angela, be nice to her, because at some point you two will start a company.”

It was hard to give up something I spent a decade-plus building, but once I realized what I wanted, the shape I wanted my career to take, the fear of giving up what I had built was trumped by the fear of losing precious minutes in my life in pursuit of what I really wanted.

How has life changed the most since you decided to become an entrepreneur?

Ha, in four words: more stress, less sleep.

The fear of failure hangs over you. At the WSJ, or  NYT, that was never a concern. Sure, I could write a terrible story, but as long as I crossed my Ts and was reasonably responsible there was nothing I could do that was THAT bad. Not so much today, I feel like there are a million ways to fail, a million ways something can go wrong. A young company is just at a precarious state, you’re fighting to keep it alive. You just hope that at the end of the day, you make more good decisions than bad ones. Or at the very least, that the bad ones will not fundamentally change your company.

It’s a constant state of worrying, and learning to handle so many different tasks at once—most of which you’re not qualified to do. In one hour, I could go from designing marketing materials on photoshop, to tweaking user experience on our mobile site, to hashing out regulatory issues. God, I wish there was a manual on how to build a startup, someone should really write the definitive book.

“The fear of failure hangs over you. At the WSJ, or  NYT, that was never a concern. Sure, I could write a terrible story, but as long as I crossed my Ts and was reasonably responsible there was nothing I could do that was THAT bad. Not so much today, I feel like there are a million ways to fail, a million ways something can go wrong. A young company is just at a precarious state, you’re fighting to keep it alive. You just hope that at the end of the day, you make more good decisions than bad ones.”

Second, since leaving journalism, I’ve also had the time to take a real break, physical and digital from the echo chamber of Silicon Valley. We’re building the company in Los Angeles, though I still come up north for a few days once every 1-2 months. The separation has probably helped me be more heads-down in building the company and less tied to the minute-by-minute machinations of the industry.  I admit, I had an unhealthy relationship with Twitter, social media. I essentially took a break and realized that the things I once obsessed about as a tech journalist, I really didn’t need to. It’s amazing how much mental space that frees up.

Has your perspective of the tech industry changed now that you’re on the other side?

One thing: I’m far more sympathetic to the entrepreneur life and entrepreneurs in general. I think when I was a journalist it was easy to be really snarky and cynical. Journalists should always be skeptical, they should be willing to pick apart, rip apart, companies and people. But, now being on the other side, now that I better understand the complexities of what an entrepreneur might be facing, or just how layered those complexities are, I have a newfound appreciation for what founders are dealing with.

“I think when I was a journalist it was easy to be really snarky and cynical. Journalists should always be skeptical, they should be willing to pick apart, rip apart, companies and people. But, now being on the other side, now that I better understand the complexities of what an entrepreneur might be facing, or just how layered those complexities are, I have a newfound appreciation for what founders are dealing with.”

It’s hard to see from the outside what battles people are fighting—whether they’re personal or professional ones. It’s easy to make fun of someone for a design mistake, or a widget that’s just not working that well, but chances are, they’re just fighting to keep the boat afloat. There’s certainly some bad actors in the industry and corporate malfeasance, but, I think on balance, people are often trying to do the best they can. And trying to make something go from zero to one, that’s really fucking hard.

How has your past covering tech as a journalist helped you as an entrepreneur?

In a way, it was like an elite business school I never paid for.

I certainly didn’t approach journalism with that perspective, but it was a welcome byproduct in the end. I’ve interviewed hundreds of founders,  investors, at nearly every stage, from zero to unicorn. It was an immense education, like a long string of Harvard Business School case studies. It gave me the opportunity to closely examine companies and dissect their wins and their failures. And as a journalist, I also got direct access to all the key players, I was able to quiz Mark Zuckerberg about how he transformed Facebook’s mobile business, or interview dozens of Zynga employees, to find out why the gaming company faltered. It was deeply fascinating and educational.

This may sound cheesy, but I think covering this industry makes you acutely aware of man’s potential, the capacity of an individual for greatness. One venture capitalist who’s backed several billion dollar companies once told me that there’s one unifying quality of his best entrepreneurs. It’s not a certain level of intelligence, or their socioeconomic status at the starting point, it is their relentless drive to force their reality upon the world.

“This may sound cheesy, but I think covering this industry makes you acutely aware of man’s potential, the capacity of an individual for greatness.”

A hunger to bend reality to their vision. As a writer, you meet a constant parade of people who have done just that. Suddenly, changing reality doesn’t seem so farfetched, it becomes normalized. More people you know have, vs. haven’t. And you reach a point of “Why not me? Why couldn’t I change the way things are in a fundamental way?”

Steve Jobs once said to an interviewer that the most powerful thing one can learn is the idea that life as you know it was also created, shaped by people, mere mortals, and that you too can change it, shape it. He said once you learn that you’ll never be the same. There’s a lot of truth to that.

You’re a woman, a first generation immigrant, and a person of color—has that helped or hindered your journey?

My co-founder and I have discussed this at length—we are both women, non-white, and children of immigrants.

We are about as far away as you can get from the Mark Zuckerberg ideal. And while I’ve certainly seen sexism—if you think Silicon Valley is bad, try covering Wall Street and finance—I think the attributes that make me an outlier have ultimately helped more than they have hurt.

As I mentioned, I was the only Indonesian girl in my suburb in New Jersey growing up, besides my sister, and when you grow up always feeling like an outsider, you don’t compare yourself to anyone else. You don’t have a mold to conform to, or a precedent to set expectations against. I always approached a challenge thinking, well why couldn’t I succeed? It’s not like I’d ever seen an Indonesian girl fail.

Being the child of immigrants is such an undervalued gift. You watch your parents rise against seemingly insurmountable odds to make it in America but you also see the struggle required to do so. From very early on, I realized that humans are capable of great things but you have to work your ass off to achieve success. My co-founder witnessed the same, her mother was a refugee of the Vietnam War who had $50 in her pocket when she came to America later built one of the largest automotive suppliers in America. When you’re raised with those stories, laziness is just not an option.

“Being the child of immigrants is such an undervalued gift. You watch your parents rise against seemingly insurmountable odds to make it in America but you also see the struggle required to do so. From very early on, I realized that humans are capable of great things but you have to work your ass off to achieve success. My co-founder witnessed the same, her mother was a refugee of the Vietnam War who had $50 in her pocket when she came to America later built one of the largest automotive suppliers in America. When you’re raised with those stories, laziness is just not an option.”

What has the experience as a female entrepreneur been like? Anything surprising?

Before becoming an entrepreneur, I didn’t really think about how my gender impacted my career. I think I was lucky to have strong female mentors in journalism and to have worked in diverse newsrooms. Not once, did I feel passed over for a promotion or an assignment because of my gender. Yes, I saw and reported on sexism in tech, but I never had to wrestle with those issues in my workplace.

It’s different now. I am definitely more aware of my gender.

Anytime I walk into a room or attend a conference, chances are the ratio will be heavily skewed to men. The decision makers skew male. Way male. And even when gender discrimination isn’t overt, I think women in tech are always left dissecting and wondering, “Well, did he say that, or did that just happen, because I’m a woman?”

I fear that progress will not happen quickly, it’s hard to reconfigure a decades-old, patriarchal-based system. Tomorrow, you can mandate more seats for women on boards or at venture capital firms, but that doesn’t solve deep-seeded gender bias, the lack of respect for women executives and investors. However, I do have to say, I have been pleasantly surprised by the number of men who’ve stepped up to help, to be so supportive, who are real champions of women. I can point to dozens who’ve really helped me over the last year, but I know I’m lucky.

“I fear that progress will not happen quickly, it’s hard to reconfigure a decades-old, patriarchal-based system. Tomorrow, you can mandate more seats for women on boards or at venture capital firms, but that doesn’t solve deep-seeded gender bias, the lack of respect for women executives and investors.”

Where do you see yourself in five or ten years?

Hopefully still doing this. I really believe that what we’re doing is potentially very profound, and I want to keep it alive long enough to see the change actualized. In five years I hope to be exactly what I’m doing now, but hopefully with more progress. And hopefully less stressed —but knowing myself—probably just as stressed.

What advice would you have to other aspiring entrepreneurs or folks wanting to leave what they’re doing now to start something they’re passionate about?

I don’t want say, ‘just do it,’ and suggest you quit without really thinking it through.

You have to really look at yourself and think about if you have the mentality to do this because it will beat you up. and most of this is not glamorous, so a heavy dose of self-reflection that’s stage one. Be ready for the roller coaster of being an entrepreneur and potentially losing everything.

When I was about to make the leap, I made myself go through a thought experiment. I asked myself, “if everything fails and it all ends in dust, what’s the worst outcome?” And I thought, well I’d probably find a job and even though the first job may not be as prestigious as past ones, I was fairly confident that I would at least find A job. And I realized I was 100% comfortable with that. That’s not terrible downside when you consider the amount you learn through entrepreneurship, and failing, and of course the potential upside of building something great. But prospective founders really have to be O.K. with the prospect of losing a lot.

Then, if you clear that hurdle, then I think there’s just the matter of figuring out what your path to success will be. Of course the best laid plans are always mucked up, so I’m not saying to draw out a blueprint in ink. Instead, have you thought through what your competitive advantage will be and what it will take to succeed? Do you have a sense of the big pieces you will need to get this to lift-off, and are you ready for the challenge of forcing this vision into reality.

“You have to really look at yourself and think about if you have the mentality to do this because it will beat you up. and most of this is not glamorous, so a heavy dose of self-reflection that’s stage one. Be ready for the roller coaster of being an entrepreneur and potentially losing everything.”

I grew up in the Santa Cruz Mountains. I have three sisters. I come from very old-fashioned Italian background. I wasn’t encouraged to do a lot in terms of career. It’s kind of the mindset that you get married, you have kids, you stay home or get a small job, but your husband has the main job role. That’s what you do.

I ended up going down a path that wasn’t necessarily… I guess the word I’m looking for is fulfilling. I got married at twenty-three, had my son at twenty-five, and became an aesthetician. Though I was grateful for my job, it was not stimulating, and financially, it was not fulfilling. I wanted to also be an inspiration for my son. How could I tell him to do all these things, like learn how to code and that tech was the future, when I wasn’t going down that path myself?

“I got married at twenty-three, had my son at twenty-five, and became an aesthetician. Though I was grateful for my job, it was not stimulating, and financially, it was not fulfilling. I wanted to also be an inspiration for my son. How could I tell him to do all these things, like learn how to code and that tech was the future, when I wasn’t going down that path myself?”

One day, I re-applied to college. I majored in Communications, since I knew I was good at that, even though I knew I wanted to do so much more. I started taking classes through the University of Massachusetts. I did all my classes online, and after I accumulated enough credits, I was accepted into the bachelor program. I looked at the program and realized this would take me years to complete. As a mother in her mid-thirties, I didn’t have the luxury of time that someone in their early twenties may have. I needed to figure out a different path. I started looking into internships, and found an internship with a PR company. The woman who hired me was named Xinea. Through her, I was exposed to tech startups and Bitcoin. I worked with her for a few months, and then I got a call from Facebook. I interviewed, but did not expect to actually get the job offer. Surprisingly, they offered me a position with the Ads department. It just seemed like everything I was aiming for just kept happening—which, I don’t how that happened, but it worked out.

At Facebook, I worked on a tool that enables you to customize what kind of ads come into your feed. While I was there I took advantage of many of the programs they offered to their employees: They offered some free coding programs, like a PHP coding program for just women. It was my first experience even using the command line. I didn’t even know what Terminal was, let alone PHP or Python. Being able to see that you can manipulate or create tools using these languages was just very exciting. I eventually looked into different coding boot camps. I looked into Hackbright, an all-coding female boot camp. I attempted to start my application, and then I stopped; I saw the acceptance rate was about four percent. Because I thought, ”I’m a parent, I’m a wife, I’m in my thirties. I have no business doing this. I don’t know anything technical to be able to say that I want to be a software engineer.” I put that on hold for about a year. I started looking outside of Facebook for jobs, because I was really interested in engineering, but also more of the security aspect of it. I found a job with WhiteHat Security; the position was in marketing, which is fine.

I still felt like there was a part of the tech world that I wanted to be in, but I didn’t feel that I had that traditional background to get there. I didn’t go to a major big-name school; I didn’t have a computer science degree; I was in my later thirties; and I had children. It just seemed like everything that was supposed to have already happened, I missed out on. I talked to my husband, who was very supportive. He’s a self-taught security professional and one of the most intelligent people I know. He helped when I felt like giving up. He encouraged me to apply for Hackbright. He kept me going.

“I attempted to start my application, and then I stopped; I saw the acceptance rate was about four percent. Because I thought, ”I’m a parent, I’m a wife, I’m in my thirties. I have no business doing this. I don’t know anything technical to be able to say that I want to be a software engineer.'”

Initially, I did not get in. I received a email that said I was not accepted and to try again in six months. I just felt that if I lost this opportunity, I would lose it forever. This was my moment. I wrote them an email and I said, “I was so nervous on my interview, I did not represent myself in a way that truly conveyed who I am. Please give me another chance.” They wrote me back, and they said, “We have never allowed anyone to re-do an interview. But your email was so encouraging that we are going to allow you to interview again.”

My second interview was much better and I was accepted! Once I started my cohort, I still felt a little bit like a fish out of water, but it was understanding the technology and understanding what it is that they teach women that don’t know anything about software development. You can come in to Hackbright with a background in tech, or you can come in knowing nothing. That’s basically where I came in, I was starting from the ground up.

After I graduated, I went through many interviews. I was going through multiple software engineering position interviews, but I still felt that I wanted to to pursue security. I found an opening at Lending Club and it was through a network of people I knew. They offered me a position on the Application Security team. Now, two weeks into it, I am an Application Security Engineer. I was an aesthetician [laughs]. It’s so random and exciting.

Tell me more about the challenges of getting to this point—like you commuted four hours a day. What were some of the challenges of this experience, and the hardships that you had to overcome?

I had mentioned before that when I first started becoming interested in learning how to code, I had a very limited technical background. I was not a IT or Comp. Sci major that decided, “Oh, I think I want to be a software engineer.” I started asking some of the engineers at Facebook about how I can learn how to code and what is it like to have that job. The one engineer who would sit next to me was very encouraging. He would say, “It takes a lot of practice” and offer to show me how he fixes bugs in the code. Not everyone is that encouraging or helpful unfortunately.

We had an event at Facebook, and it was an Ads event to teach people in other departments what the Ads team does. The event had a Game of Thrones theme, which I was very excited about. I remember talking to someone from another team. I wanted to ask about the code but was slightly intimidated since I was very new to the world of code. So I got the courage and I said, “So what code does this code run on?” And there was a female engineer there and she turned to me and she just laughed in my face. She just laughed at me because I wasn’t part of that group, I was not an engineer, and obviously a noob. At that moment, I realized that high school was never over.

“I remember talking to someone from another team. I wanted to ask about the code but was slightly intimidated since I was very new to the world of code. So I got the courage and I said, ‘So what code does this code run on?’ And there was a female engineer there and she turned to me and she just laughed in my face. She just laughed at me because I wasn’t part of that group, I was not an engineer, and obviously a noob. At that moment, I realized that high school was never over.”

Aside from my own personal challenges, I also had the challenge of maintaining my family life as well. I knew that once I started my four hour a day commute, it would be a difficult to find someone to pick up my son from the school bus. I have two other step-children, so there’s three kids altogether that need to be cared for. Fortunately, between my husband and family—and sometimes I would even have to leave class and do pick up—we worked it out.  I would get home at 8:00 or 8:30. The kids go to bed at 9:30. I wouldn’t see them very much, but fortunately they were all understanding. It was hard to feel so out of touch with my family but I felt it was important to do this for myself—and also for the kids. They need to see the importance of not giving up and hopefully the importance of learning how to code.

What are some of the most exciting things to you of working in tech and coding? What part of the work really activates you?

My first week at my new job, we all had a one-week bootcamp to get us to understand how the technology department operates. We went over everything from setting up dev environments to database schemas. I was in these classes with people who went to big colleges or had years of experiences or master degrees in computer science. Seeing that I was able to contribute to the conversations—and even knew about some topics that maybe some of them didn’t—felt really good. It reminded me that I had made the right choice to quit my job and take that chance. Understanding technology and knowing a coding language really gives you magic powers. It’s like being Harry Potter. You have a power that not many people do. And I think for me, I feel more excited about it because it was something that three years ago I wouldn’t have been able to say that I would be able to do this. It’s all still very surreal.

“Understanding technology and knowing a coding language really gives you magic powers. It’s like being Harry Potter. You have a power that not many people do.”

What are the biggest motivators behind your work?

My husband first, then the kids. My husband is very encouraging to me and that in turn motivates me. I want him to see that I can go from knowing so little, to having tech-related conversations without any issue. Tech is his world and I want to join him and be part of it. Steve would be proud of anything I do, but it makes me happy that I am joining him in “The Matrix.”

We tell the kids that coding is very important to learn. I feel it’s important for the future for people to understand how to code and being in tune with technology. We sent the kids to coding classes. I wanted them to see me making that effort to learn the topic that we preach about so often.

Lastly, I am motivated by becoming an inspiration for someone else who is in a similar situation. I started taking phone calls for people that are interested in Hackbright or another coding bootcamp, people who maybe aren’t sure about the commitment. I actually just got an email today from one young lady who said, “I really appreciate that you encouraged me and told me the benefits of going down this path. I was just accepted to Hackbright!” You get to the point when you’re older that you realize there are things that, if you want to do them you’re going to have to sacrifice. I didn’t want to take no for an answer. I didn’t want to say my time is up. I wanted to be part of the Harry Potter group and know the magic.

Where have you found support networks along the way? Obviously your family, but have you found them in the industry as well?

I found most of my support through co-workers in the security industry. I had some mentors, and they’re all men, which I love, because I feel that a lot of women want to be in the industry: They want to be software engineers, they want to be QA testers, they want to be in security, but the ratio is more men. I’m the only female on my team right now, which could make people uncomfortable. I am very comfortable with it and I don’t even think about the ratio. Maybe others don’t feel that they have that support, but I actually feel that I have had a lot of support.

How do your family and friends from your past feel about how much your life has changed and all the work that you’ve done?

I have a coworker, Katie, that still can’t believe that I’ve made it to this point, because she said—her and I, we took a Python class together at Facebook—”I can’t believe it. You said you wanted to do this and here you are and you’re working. You’re an engineer.” She gave up on learning Python. It wasn’t for her, but it was nice of her to congratulate and be supportive. Honestly, I don’t know if my family quite grasps what it is that I do. I think they get it, but not really. They are extremely supportive in knowing that I wanted to do something and achieved it, but I am not sure they understand the job.

How do you think the culmination of your background and your life experiences impact the way you approach your work as an engineer?

Starting my first tech job made me feel like a fish out of water. I felt like I knew nothing. So to survive one day at a time I used my experience in marketing, PR, just working with people in general. This is a huge asset to have. If I came straight from just a tech background, you know I went for a tech major and maybe I didn’t have that interpersonal skills, it wouldn’t make it as easy for me to just go up to someone and say, “I’m not really getting this, but, with your help I may.” I feel that my communication skills have come into play and I feel it is something that can really help the team when working with other teams and developers.

As far as 2016 goals, what little things are you working on right now, either for work or for yourself? Like what are the things you want to accomplish this year?

2016 goals are learn as much as I can about being an applications security engineer. Understanding the vulnerabilities, understanding how to secure code and understanding all the acronyms that I hear during the day. It’s all new to me. Lending Club gave me an opportunity to learn, and I’m going to run with that. I want to still practice everything I learned at Hackbright because that was the golden ticket that got me in. I also would like to continue to help other women that are in the same place that I was in. I had moments of serious doubt and I can’t believe I thought about not taking this chance. If I could help sway more women to trust in themselves and just go for it, that would be wonderful.

From kind of a high level, how do you feel about the state of technology in 2016? What really excites you, and what would you like to see change?

That’s a good question. I am very impressed with the way that technology is progressing. I like the ideas. I like that there’s always something new. It’s hard to keep up, I have to say. You think you have found the best tool to help with a current project, and then something new and more advanced comes out. I really enjoy that and love seeing the speed of progression. The amount of intelligence out there right now, even just in Silicon Valley is huge. I work with so many insanely intelligent people which has me very excited about the future and what is to come.

As far as what I would like to see change, right now, and it has been for the last couple years when I’ve been working, my goal has been to get into security. Rewind a little bit, when I was at Facebook, I knew I wanted to get into security. I had no idea how to do it. This is before even seriously considering Hackbright. I went to Jen Henley, who is the director of security operations at Facebook, and she sat down with me and just kind of gave me a guide on what to do to get into security. I started volunteering with their security awareness events, and then I went to work for WhiteHat Security. My husband is in security, and so by osmosis, I learned to love it. I think that it is an area of technology that is overseen. People are looking for the next best company, the next best app, but they’re not looking at the dangers that are involved in it. They are not taking the time to understand all the possible vulnerabilities and how they can be exploited. All of our lives are on technology. Everything important to you in online, your information, your personal lives, your photos, your family, and if someone’s not out there protecting that then all is lost.

What advice would you give to folks who are feeling like they have similar backgrounds to yours? Maybe they feel like their ship has sailed, they’ve had kids, they are in their thirties, they feel like that there’s no way that they could get into tech now, but they would love to. What advice would you have for those folks?

My advice is, time is going to pass anyway. Someone told me this a couple years ago and it resonated with me. It’s true. Time is going to pass anyway, and you don’t want to go down the road and think, “You know, I wish I did x, y, z.” For me, I went to a start-up convention and I just looked around and saw these people making these exciting new tech tools to improve our everyday life and I just thought, I need to know this, I want to be part of this.

If someone is working in a position and they’re unfulfilled or dream of changing positions and making a career change, and they think, “I’m too old or I have kids, I can’t do it,” then my advice is that time is going to pass regardless, and you don’t want to regret it not taking that chance. You only have one life.

You could go down it by going through a boot camp. You could look at CodeAcademy or, just take a Girl Develop It class for beginners. Start somewhere and I promise the momentum will take you the rest of the way. I took some online courses and GDI classes before I went to Hackbright. Just getting that little bit of experience is enough to drive you to continue on and finish the journey. I went from what I was doing—aesthetician work at ten dollars an hour a couple days a week—to a great job as an Associate Application Security Engineer. It was not an easy journey. I got denied a lot. I interviewed a lot, I got turned down a lot. My path was not paved with open doors. I faced a lot of disappointment in all phases of my journey. It worked out, and I would say don’t get discouraged. Just keep going, because it’ll happen.