Tell me a bit about your early years and where you come from.

I come from Sacramento, California. I come from a mixed-race, mixed-identity household, and that set me up for a really open view [chuckles] growing up. I’ve always been into creative things, but never really honed in on it or went to any kinds of young art schools or anything like that. It was only through being diagnosed with cancer that I even discovered design or anything that I’m doing now.

“It was only through being diagnosed with cancer that I even discovered design or anything that I’m doing now.”

That is wild. How old were you?

I was 14.

Walk me through that: getting diagnosed and discovering design at the same time, how does that even work?

I went to the doctor after having some discomfort in my neck for a few months, and then carried on about my business like nothing was wrong. Initially, I was diagnosed with a lymph node infection, so I just went to school. After a couple more days though, they retested the sample and it turned out that I had cancer—so they abruptly pulled me out of school out of nowhere. My mom was like, “We need to go to the hospital right now. Don’t worry about class. Don’t worry about any of that.” And I go there and they sit me down and say, “Hey, you have stage three Burkitt’s lymphoma. We need to start chemotherapy immediately.”

How does a 14 year old even know what that means?

I don’t know. I was on my way to lunch and then took the detour. So then I started chemo the next day, and it was pretty intense. I had to shave my head, I lost the rest of my hair, couldn’t keep food down—I was throwing up pretty much every day. And then one day, I was laying in the ICU—isolated because I had zero white blood cells due to treatment—and I saw the little icons to adjust the bed angle up and down. They stood out to me because I could understand them but they didn’t have any words. Maybe it was just because I wasn’t really talking to people—I was in my head a lot and I started asking myself, “What’s the thing that lets me understand what this does? Like why can I read this symbol? It’s not a hieroglyph, it’s not a word, but why do I know what it’s doing. Like what’s that magic or that secret sauce behind understanding symbols?” And then I started researching things like ISOTYPE and iconography, and then that led me down the rabbit hole of digital design and now here I am.

“After a couple more days though, they retested the sample and it turned out that I had cancer—so they abruptly pulled me out of school out of nowhere. My mom was like, ‘We need to go to the hospital right now. Don’t worry about class. Don’t worry about any of that.’ And I go there and they sit me down and say, ‘Hey, you have stage three Burkitt’s lymphoma. We need to start chemotherapy immediately.'”

Wow. In a similar vein, did you know that you’d end up in tech, or when did you first get intrigued by that?

Working in tech kind of came as a really big surprise. The only reason I’m even working in tech is because a friend of mine who I knew, back from when I used to do graffiti in college, told me about some event that Google was holding and he said, “You should throw your hat in the ring and see if they pick you for it.” I was like, “Eh, I’m not going to get picked. I don’t have any art background or I don’t really even know how to use Photoshop, but I’ll do it.” So I applied for a thing called Google +20 at the recommendation of a graffiti artist in Australia. +20 was Google’s search for a top-20 selection of emerging creatives around the world, which teamed up for a hackathon, as part of Semi-Permanent LA. I pitched them a moonshot, and I was picked for it. From that, I met a lot of great designers at Google, Maud, and from Wieden+Kennedy. That introduced me to my first set of mentors and I decided to take it seriously, and that’s how I got my start in tech.

Since then, what are your proudest projects and what have been the highlights of your career?

I guess I’d consider my ‘career’ as starting before my first actual job in tech. There was one big challenge that I took a leap in, that was coming out of the +20 event with Google. I wanted to hold my own similar thing. I had just been introduced to the idea of moonshot thinking, and I was riding this high of like, “Nothing is impossible.” So I held a design sprint with Google on civic innovation when I was 22. Most of the mentors from the previous Google event came out to Sacramento to help me run the event. That kind of gave me the spark that I still kind of hold on to—that with enough planning and focus and determination… so far I’ve encountered nothing that’s impossible.

“It is a pretty big daily struggle. I’m still going through scares about, “Oh, my God. What is this bump?” Or, “This fever’s lasted too long.” I was at a gastroenterologist yesterday getting an ultrasound and a biopsy just because it’s such an ongoing concern.”

One of the mentors that came to the event—her name was Krista Sanders, and she was the design director at a company called Whistle. They make a GPS tracker for dogs. That’s where I still work now as the Sr. Visual Designer. Just getting to build that kind of trial by fire has just been one long, very drawn-out accomplishment, in my eyes.

What have you felt are your biggest struggles?

I think one of my biggest struggles is—and I talk pretty openly about how cancer has been the catalyst to why and how I became a designer—but it is a pretty big daily struggle. I’m still going through scares about, “Oh, my God. What is this bump?” Or, “This fever’s lasted too long.” I was at a gastroenterologist yesterday getting an ultrasound and a biopsy just because it’s such an ongoing concern.

Also coming from a self-taught background proved to be a huge challenge. I studied communication and mass media in college, and I took one design class once and decided to switch my major because I didn’t like how it was taught. But I found that I have to learn a lot of things really quickly when I found out I don’t know them because it wasn’t included in the self-taught curriculum of just learning Photoshop and Illustrator. There’s so much that I realize I don’t know that I have to be really agile in learning. It’s kind of an ongoing challenge, I kind of like it, but it is kind of tough at times.

Yeah. You had a freelance time in your career, right?

Going through college, one of the ways I made a living was doing commissioned artwork and freelance design. I met some interesting characters throughout the freelancing [laughter].

Would you want to go back to that or do you prefer what you’re doing now?

In freelancing?

Yeah.

I mean, I’ve always  I’ve had this idea of one day, just owning a studio and doing strictly client work on a more structured basis. I just don’t want to go back to how I was doing it previously [laughter].

“There’s no class to learn how to do graffiti. You just had to figure it out, and take your knocks, and your critiques. And people will cover your stuff with expletives, which is more in your face than a design critique, but in the same way that’s kind of really helped me be able to kill my darlings and focus on bettering my craft. I don’t get attached to things. Everything I’ve created since day one has been temporary, from graffiti to iterating in designs, so if we’re going to kill it and make something better, I’m all for it. I think it’s a strength [chuckles].”

Yeah, for sure. So, your background’s in graffiti, which I think is really cool. And how do you feel like that informs your work?

It showed me the underbelly of society—the good and the bad of it. It helps humanize the strangers out on the street, and it absolutely helped me empathize in things like user testing or doing emotional design. It’s also helped me really cut my teeth to some hard challenges. There’s no class to learn how to do graffiti. You just had to figure it out, and take your knocks, and your critiques. And people will cover your stuff with expletives, which is more in your face than a design critique, but in the same way that’s kind of really helped me be able to kill my darlings and focus on bettering my craft. I don’t get attached to things. Everything I’ve created since day one has been temporary, from graffiti to iterating in designs, so if we’re going to kill it and make something better, I’m all for it. I think it’s a strength [chuckles].

Have you had mentors or folks that you looked up to for inspiration on the way?

Yes, I think the core group of mentors that—that during Google+ came out to my little event that I held—I really looked up to them in such a serious way. They’ve made me the designer I am today. Among them are Mike Buzzard, Brynne Evans, Chris Messina, Christa Sanders and Chikezie Ejiasi. In each of their own ways, they each taught me so much about design and tech, building my soft skills and design chops. They helped to demystify my preconceptions about what I saw, at the time, as the ivory tower of tech.

“I was worried it would be a bunch of privileged, rich, Harvard-dropout types. While the stereotypical person in tech certainly exists, it’s not by any means the norm that I’ve experienced. From what I’ve seen, it’s people who are drowning in debt and struggling to make it by, and people who lost their previous jobs when the economy tanked, and who have real worries.”

What were your preconceptions? What were you worried about going into it?

I was worried it would be a bunch of privileged, rich, Harvard-dropout types. While the stereotypical person in tech certainly exists, it’s not by any means the norm that I’ve experienced. From what I’ve seen, it’s people who are drowning in debt and struggling to make it by, and people who lost their previous jobs when the economy tanked, and who have real worries.

How has being different—like coming from a graffiti community, having a diverse racial composition—how have those things been both an asset and a hindrance to you?

I’ve met a lot of people, between previous clients and other designers I’ve met, that have been pretty vocal with judgmental concepts about race. I’m Persian, and I have a lot of family from the Middle East. I went to a design meet-up, and I heard a couple designers right in front of me talking pretty offensively about people from the Middle East. Because perhaps they looked around and didn’t see anyone wearing a turban, they thought it was okay to talk like this. People say what they want to say when they think it’s okay. They’ll do a quick racial check around themselves, and then they can take the filters off. It’s made me a little bit more distrustful, or maybe a bit more cynical, of the design and tech community. For every bit that is the optimism I have, there’s a part that’s wanting to cautiously question who I’m talking to, or the people around me.

“I’m Persian, and I have a lot of family from the Middle East. I went to a design meet-up, and I heard a couple designers right in front of me talking pretty offensively about people from the Middle East. Because perhaps they looked around and didn’t see anyone wearing a turban, they thought it was okay to talk like this. People say what they want to say when they think it’s okay. They’ll do a quick racial check around themselves, and then they can take the filters off. It’s made me a little bit more distrustful, or maybe a bit more cynical, of the design and tech community. For every bit that is the optimism I have, there’s a part that’s wanting to cautiously question who I’m talking to, or the people around me.”

I talked to someone earlier today that spoke of the concept of “white enough.” Someone white enough that he passes for certain things, but also hears racial aggressions that probably wouldn’t be said in front of him otherwise.

It’s kind of turned into not so much a daily thing, but at least two or three times a week and that’s just in talking to the extended design community.

“One time I had a client very blatantly ask me, ‘Where’s your name from? Like ethnically?’ I’ve always dreaded any ethnic-related questions in interviews, and I’ve had a couple of times people break what’s acceptable to talk about in interviews and ask me what my ethnicity was in tech, just generally.”

That’s wild.

It sounds made up for so many reasons. I want to not believe it, despite having witnessed it.

It gets a little depressing after a while. One time I had a client very blatantly ask me, “Where’s your name from? Like ethnically?” I’ve always dreaded any ethnic-related questions in interviews, and I’ve had a couple of times people break what’s acceptable to talk about in interviews and ask me what my ethnicity was in tech, just generally.

Wow.  On the flip side of that, where do you find your support networks?

I find my support networks with designers who’ve been around the block a little bit more. Thinking back—it seems like everyone who’s been saying such extreme and inappropriate things has been earlier in their career—no more than 4 or 5 years into their career. Despite falling within that range, I find myself identifying and just appreciating more with how people who are closer to a decade or two into their career. Maybe it’s because all of them who chose not to clean up how they act, didn’t make it that far [chuckles].

“Thinking back—it seems like everyone who’s been saying such extreme and inappropriate things has been earlier in their career—no more than 4 or 5 years into their career. Despite falling within that range, I find myself identifying and just appreciating more with how people who are closer to a decade or two into their career. Maybe it’s because all of them who chose not to clean up how they act, didn’t make it that far [chuckles].”

Yeah, I hope so.

Yeah, same [chuckles].

Let’s see. Have we talked about motivators? We talked about mentors. I don’t know if we talked about motivators.

I don’t think we talked about motivators.

Kind of similar, but different. What motivates you, and what are the motivations behind your work?

To me, finding design inspired me with something to really fight through chemo for. I was so depressed and just mugging through everyday. It gave me something to really purpose myself towards. Ever since then, I’ve always had this greater idea – or greater purpose, or need – to just do massive amounts of good. And I’m really trying to refrain from saying the stereotypical, “Make the world a better place.” [laughter] That’s kind of become a trademarked term in Silicon Valley.

“Finding design inspired me with something to really fight through chemo for. I was so depressed and just mugging through everyday. It gave me something to really purpose myself towards. Ever since then, I’ve always had this greater idea – or greater purpose, or need – to just do massive amounts of good.”

There’s some genuine good work being done out there. I’d rather use design to solve problems that people can’t afford to not have solved. To me it’s not necessarily about calling a ride faster, but maybe how to get clean water. Or how to get food. Or the basic necessities to life. I think that kind of design, for me, is my greatest inspiration.

Do you think your background and life experience—do you think that feeds into that desire to affect greater the world than just here in Silicon Valley?

Absolutely. Even as a kid, I had a pretty broad world view just like having family in the Middle East but also being Native American. I think that’s really humanized a lot for me.

How do your friends and family feel about the work that you’ve done?

They love it. My current work at Whistle is a common point for a lot of friends and family. We all have rescued dogs, so it’s a huge motivator to design with those pups in mind.

“There’s some genuine good work being done out there. I’d rather use design to solve problems that people can’t afford to not have solved.”

It’s nice that you are designing something your family can use.

Yeah [laughter]. It was part of the reason why I was so excited to work at Whistle. It’s just really cool to build something for something that’s so close to my heart, and the hearts of my friends and family.

It’s cool to hand them a tech device and say, “Hey, I helped make this thing. Open your phone and I’ll show you how to use it.” It’s really nice.

That’s awesome.

It feels very tangible.

What do you think about the state of tech in general in 2016? What excites you about it, what frustrates you about it?

Whoa. [laughter]

Loaded question.

Yeah, a lot excites me. I think that there’s a very democratic change happening to how companies are founded, and how they are threatened by one another that lets the users ultimately win. I work with IOT devices—the Internet of Things—and the space is really starting to really feel validated. I see a lot of huge opportunity in connecting various devices, and letting them all interact with one another – especially in the medical field. Biometric sensors have a long way to go and I can think of personal times in a hospital bed being covered and tangled up in IV lines—could have been relieved by having everything be wireless and connected. [chuckle] It’s a pretty graphic image to think of, but imagine being lined up with IVs in your arms and then falling is the worst thing ever. IOT could make that fear never exist again. [chuckles]

“I can think of personal times in a hospital bed being covered and tangled up in IV lines—could have been relieved by having everything be wireless and connected.

Quite literally my worst fear.

One day, thanks to technology, no one will ever have to experience that fear come to life.

But I am curious, because when I—recently I had my first major surgery. When your appendix bursts you could die, and that moment was kind of getting struck by lightning for me. And my priorities have completely—they haven’t changed necessarily—but all this other little shit that used to take up mindspace doesn’t matter anymore.  And I’m curious how becoming so sick so early and almost losing your life—how do you feel like your perspective and your priorities are different than other young designers around you?

I feel like my priorities are definitely different than my peers. It’s going to sound like a super old dusty thing to say, but “fun” isn’t exactly what excites me about life or what I, in any way, feel the need to focus my time on. I’d much rather spend 36 hours a day building something that’s going to outlive me, because at any moment—very literally—bad news could come in. And your present self is the culmination of all your choices in the past. I want to make sure that whenever that ultimate day comes along, I’ve got a lot of shit that stays around after I’m gone.

Where do you see yourself in five or ten years? Do you think you’ll be in tech?

I think I’ll definitely still be in tech in five or ten years. Specifically in product design. Not entirely sure about still being in San Francisco. Nothing against the city—but I’ve traveled a lot my whole life—and I just love the idea of one day designing in Brooklyn or something, and one day designing somewhere in Colorado, or Portland, or Zimbabwe. Or Vietnam. [chuckles]

“I feel like my priorities are definitely different than my peers. It’s going to sound like a super old dusty thing to say, but “fun” isn’t exactly what excites me about life or what I, in any way, feel the need to focus my time on. I’d much rather spend 36 hours a day building something that’s going to outlive me, because at any moment—very literally—bad news could come in. And your present self is the culmination of all your choices in the past. I want to make sure that whenever that ultimate day comes along, I’ve got a lot of shit that stays around after I’m gone.”

I’m curious what advice you would give to folks from similar backgrounds—or folks that have been through similar struggles—that are in tech or hoping to get in.

“Don’t give up.” I don’t want to soapbox, but I’ve been through some pretty shitty experiences—I’ve gone through cancer, being robbed, debt, etc. But at the same time it’s been just as motivating because I firmly believe—and maybe this is just the optimist in me speaking—but I firmly believe people and life are intrinsically good. There’s such a bright light at the end of this tunnel. At the end of this career I want to look back and see so much cool stuff I’ve built. And that’s not going to happen if I let everything get to me, or if I get bummed out by material things. So I guess just focus on what’s really important if you’re looking back from the end of your life and let that guide you.